Sheffield Supertram - potential extension suggestions

[GingerSte]

South Yorkshire exploring possibilities of Supertram network extension | New Civil Engineer

Symca took back control of the Supertram at the end of March after it had been under private ownership and operation by Stagecoach since 1997. It had been

www.newcivilengineer.com

Symca is investigating the possibility of an extension in Sheffield to Stocksbridge and Barrow Hill on a tram-train line.

Further, it is looking to extend to Chesterfield with the potential to connect to hospitals.

The authority is currently canvassing views on how the Supertram can be improved and where it should prioritise expansions. The survey is available here and is open until 30 April...

As the article linked to above states, South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority are exploring possible extensions.

Which ones would you go for?

A few are mentioned in the thread, but I would like to add an idea: extension from North Rotherham to Thrybergh. This would use a previously existing alignment (and so would hopefully be cheaper) to serve two stops in Thrybergh in addition to one at Aldwarke and Parkgate. (This latter, I would also make into a National Rail Station, along with 4-tracking up to Swinton Junction, but that's a thread for another time.)

Getting the crayons out...

 

[JD2168]

I would extend it to the following places:
Northern General Hospital.
Hallamshire Hospital.
Meadowhead to a possible Park & Ride site at nearby Norton Aerodrome.
Stocksbridge via Oughtibridge.
Doncaster & possibly Robin Hood Airport as well.
Waverley.
Dore & Totley Rail Station via Millhouses along Abbeydale Road.

 

[HullRailMan]

Oh dear - more fantasy economics in the run up to an election. Why not bring the existing system up to scratch before getting the credit card out and making it bigger?

 

[Fishandbananas]

Dore & Totley Rail Station via Millhouses along Abbeydale Road.

Wouldn't using existing space next to the current rail alignment make more sense. It was originally quad track so there's space, and I don't know when you last when down Abbeydale road but it's not exactly got lots of space...

 

[Teapot42]

Wouldn't using existing space next to the current rail alignment make more sense. It was originally quad track so there's space, and I don't know when you last when down Abbeydale road but it's not exactly got lots of space...

I thought that as well. There do appear to be a few places where the alignment has been narrowed though so there might be a need to run single track or even switch on to the heavy rail lines unless the obstructions can be removed.

As an aside, there is mention of a plan to extend to Chesterfield but not which way. To me it seems to make sense to do this as another train tram route. There are plenty of places new stops could be added (or old stations reinstated) such as Unstone, Whittington Moor and, if it ever happens, the new Peak development at Sheepbridge. I've thought for a long time that a park and ride just off Bowshaw roundabout would make a lot of sense as well, capture the traffic before it gets in to the denser road network of Sheffield.

The main issue is likely to be capacity (and future plans) of this route, and the ability to work trams in and around the heavy rail services. I recall that one issue with electrifying this route was with limited clearances at Dronfield - I wonder if there is scope for either a new alignment or to re-route all mainline trains a different way to resolve that issue, and as a happy aside to make it easier to make it tram-only?

I wonder also if there are plans to extend the network beyond the centre of Chesterfield - there are some big new developments on the way to Clay Cross for example.

I am actually surprised extension to Chesterfield is on the cards. There were plans for us to joint the Sheffield Mayoral authority but that got kyboshed by the council, despite there being popular local support for it, not to to mention very strong economic and social links between the two. We've now been put in to an East Midlands authority with no real say in the matter despite being an outlier in the area, so to even have the opportunity to still be better linked with Sheffield is great.

 

[Iskra]

Probably not worth it's own thread, or irritating a mod by asking for a thread unlock, but according to the latest Brancline News, a Serco Test Train ran up the Deepcar/ Stocksbridge Branch on April 12th, which is the first use in just over 12 months. That seems positive news in terms of the line possibly having a future.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Great to see some more projects that we can look forward to getting cancelled in 30 years time.

 

[johnnychips]

I do like Supertram, but they are going to have enough financial difficulty replacing their old stock in the next few years without contemplating extensions.

 

[TheGuy77]

Oh dear - more fantasy economics in the run up to an election. Why not bring the existing system up to scratch before getting the credit card out and making it bigger?

Great to see some more projects that we can look forward to getting cancelled in 30 years time.

I do like Supertram, but they are going to have enough financial difficulty replacing their old stock in the next few years without contemplating extensions.

Come on people, you can't improve a public transport network without increasing your customer base.

 

[Masbroughlad]

Does anyone have an original plan of the proposed system before it even started. I know there were more lines planned in Rotherham, because one was going to go past our childhood home.

Sure the economics of the area would have been far more positive if it had gone ahead as widely as planned.

 

[Ben427]

Oh dear - more fantasy economics in the run up to an election. Why not bring the existing system up to scratch before getting the credit card out and making it bigger?

My understanding that at least some of the extensions being looked into are around tram-train with a view to improving capacity at the northern end of Sheffield which cannot easily be improved for heavy rail

Aside from the ridiculous comparison of national debt and credit cards (thank you George Osbourne), how else can infrastructure be built?

 

[Halifaxlad]

If you put in a segregated turnback in at Barnsley as I believe is being looked at it might be an idea to run to stocksbridge reconnect it to Penistone and convert the penistone line to tram.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If you put in a segregated turnback in at Barnsley as I believe is being looked at it might be an idea to run to stocksbridge reconnect it to Penistone and convert the penistone line to tram.

No no no! The Penistone line was proposed for conversion to tram-trains years ago, but thankfully this wasn't taken forward. The Huddersfield to Sheffield service gets decent usage, especially when you factor in the unavoidable long journey times end-to-end. Removing it from the national network would be an utterly stupid idea, not least because it extends beyond SYPTE's jurisdiction.

 

[60019]

Surely it would have been the closed line between Deeper Deepcarand Penistone that would have been used for tram-trains, especially if tram-trains were extended over the extant but unused line to Stockbridge, as gets proposed. every few years.

 

[HSTEd]

Surely it would have been the closed line between Deeper and Penistone that would have been used for tram-trains, especially if tram-trains were extended over the extant but unused line to Stockbridge, as gets proposed. every few years.

The crazy thing is it takes ~20 minutes to get from Sheffield Railway station tram stop to Hillsborough tram stop, and then another 6 minutes to get from there to Middlewood tram stop.

If the tram could be extended to meet the stocksbridge line it could probably be competitive to Penistone. It's 15km or so from there to Penistone and it has ~18 minutes to beat the train via Barnsley.

On the other hand, we have a well established legal framework for central government to contract rail services with bodies it doesn't control, and I don't see operating outside the SYPTE area as a significant problem.
If they went, for example, from one train per hour on the Penistone line to two trams per hour I don't think they would care about what was written on the side.

The Penistone line from Barnsley to Huddersfield has no section with a speed limit over 50mph as it is.

 

[Chester1]

The crazy thing is it takes ~20 minutes to get from Sheffield Railway station tram stop to Hillsborough tram stop, and then another 6 minutes to get from there to Middlewood tram stop.

If the tram could be extended to meet the stocksbridge line it could probably be competitive to Penistone. It's 15km or so from there to Penistone and it has ~18 minutes to beat the train via Barnsley.

On the other hand, we have a well established legal framework for central government to contract rail services with bodies it doesn't control, and I don't see operating outside the SYPTE area as a significant problem.
If they went, for example, from one train per hour on the Penistone line to two trams per hour I don't think they would care about what was written on the side.

The Penistone line from Barnsley to Huddersfield has no section with a speed limit over 50mph as it is.

The way to square the circle would be to reopen Sheffield to Deepcar as tram train and then push for a special agreement extending out of the SYPTE area. The freight line runs into Barnsley Borough for a mile or two so having tram trains leave SYPTE even without stopping would help push the agenda.

 

[Killingworth]

Wouldn't using existing space next to the current rail alignment make more sense. It was originally quad track so there's space, and I don't know when you last when down Abbeydale road but it's not exactly got lots of space...

The difficulty about that is that when the 2 lines were removed the remaining tracks were slewed and loops added at Heeley. Parts of the old removed track bed have been sold off (beside Tescos) and several bridges dismantled.

MML electrification plans may include adding a 3rd mainline track that would use most of the remaining space. However this section must be in the likely new Transport Secretary's constituency so anything may happen.

 

[TheGuy77]

As SYMCA starts exploring new extensions (as they always do, even though nothing comes to fruition), does anybody know any suggestions for potential future extensions to the Supertram (apart from the Stocksbridge-Chesterfield Tram-Train which SYMCA always seem to discuss?)

I have made two ideas here, one for Stocksbridge and another for Bradway; please add your own ideas and constructive criticism.

Obviously this would all be done after renewing the existing network and getting it up to ship-shape, with a new tram fleet and stops etc.

 

[JD2168]

Here are some which I would think would work:
City to Northern General Hospital & Sheffield Lane Top. The bus turning circle is still in place at Lane Top & the Hospital would be a great option plus from the bus stop on Barnsley Road is a fairly long & steep walk to Accident & Emergency

Herdings Park to Jordanthorpe, Batemoor & Meadowhead to a possible Park & Ride location. Would be pretty simple to do & make better use of the Purple route than at present.

 

[BerkshireRails]

Isn't there a plan to extend the tram-train from Rotherham?

 

[TheGuy77]

Isn't there a plan to extend the tram-train from Rotherham?

I think there's a plan to extend it from Parkgate to Doncaster/DSA, but it's pretty unlikely compared to something like the Stocksbridge or Hospitals extensions.

 

[Killingworth]

As SYMCA starts exploring new extensions (as they always do, even though nothing comes to fruition), does anybody know any suggestions for potential future extensions to the Supertram (apart from the Stocksbridge-Chesterfield Tram-Train which SYMCA always seem to discuss?)

I have made two ideas here, one for Stocksbridge and another for Bradway; please add your own ideas and constructive criticism.

Obviously this would all be done after renewing the existing network and getting it up to ship-shape, with a new tram fleet and stops etc.

Stocksbridge ideas have been raked over very many times in previous threads.

I feel sure extending the Herdings spur to Meadowhead has also been suggested before, even including running to Bradway. This map shows relatively easy construction making use of the dual carriageway ring road to Gleadless Townend - and then to Manor Top before turning down City Road into the city centre.

Much of the extra mileage is through open country. The rest is not close to large numbers of potential users that aren't already serviced by buses going down the A61 from Meadowhead into the city centre . I know one person from Bradway who drives to Gleadless Townend to get a tram into town, a tram enthusiast. On the other hand I see people from Halfway driving to Dore to get trains to Manchester, both using the ring road.

Fo a number of years I used the ring road from Meadowhead to near Meadowhall. It was, and still is, a nightmare for congestion in which Supertrams also get trapped. I can see absolutely no advantage in taking a tram from Bradway via that tortuous route into the city centre.

 

[johnnychips]

I think there's a plan to extend it from Parkgate to Doncaster/DSA, but it's pretty unlikely compared to something like the Stocksbridge or Hospitals extensions.

This keeps coming up, and I don’t see any advantage (not least of which Doncaster Airport has closed). The hourly Northern stopper takes about forty minutes between Sheffield and Doncaster, whereas the tram-train takes twenty-three minutes just to get to Rotherham. After that, where would it go? - the existing rail line is intensely used, and a new line, perhaps with street running in Swindon and Mexborough would cost a fortune, and the journey time would be very long. Please just reinstate the second slow train service per hour that existed before Covid.

 

[Grimsby town]

This keeps coming up, and I don’t see any advantage (not least of which Doncaster Airport has closed). The hourly Northern stopper takes about forty minutes between Sheffield and Doncaster, whereas the tram-train takes twenty-three minutes just to get to Rotherham. After that, where would it go? - the existing rail line is intensely used, and a new line, perhaps with street running in Swindon and Mexborough would cost a fortune, and the journey time would be very long. Please just reinstate the second slow train service per hour that existed before Covid.

The benefits are that the tram serves far more locations within Sheffield so a lot of journey times will be reduced compared to trains. If the previous plans are implemented, frequency from Mexborough and Conisborough will increase to 3 tram-trains per hour which reduces waiting times and improves generalised journey time. It also removes trains from Sheffield Station, allowing more trains to Leeds for example.

The route would be an extension from Parkgate along existing railways. As far as I'm aware, the exact route has never been published. It might be that new tram only tracks are built along the mainline to Swinton, where the tram-trains would run along the existing railway to Doncaster. It might also use the more direct route to Mexborough avoiding Swinton (name escapes me). The line from Swinton to Doncaster is obviously less busy so there is less need for additional tracks. It'd probably terminate at New platforms at Doncaster specifically for tram-train.

Finally, this reduces flat crossings at Aldwarke and Holmes junctions from stopping services accesing Rotherham Central which improves reliability. I think its a good idea to release capacity and it should be relatively cheap given it will mostly use existing infrastructure.

 

[BerkshireRails]

The route would be an extension from Parkgate along existing railways. As far as I'm aware, the exact route has never been published. It might be that new tram only tracks are built along the mainline to Swinton, where the tram-trains would run along the existing railway to Doncaster. It might also use the more direct route to Mexborough avoiding Swinton (name escapes me). The line from Swinton to Doncaster is obviously less busy so there is less need for additional tracks. It'd probably terminate at New platforms at Doncaster specifically for tram-train.

That other route would be via Thrybergh Junction. Is the extension to Barrow Hill part of Sheffield Supertrams or is that a different system?

 

[S101]

The Stocksbridge Line is now officially Out of Use. Any effort to re-open now will be prohibitively expensive.

 

[Halifaxlad]

The Stocksbridge Line is now officially Out of Use. Any effort to re-open now will be prohibitively expensive.

As a rail line or as a tram line ?

 

[S101]

As a rail line or as a tram line ?

As a railway line.

 

[Llandudno]

I thought that as well. There do appear to be a few places where the alignment has been narrowed though so there might be a need to run single track or even switch on to the heavy rail lines unless the obstructions can be removed.

As an aside, there is mention of a plan to extend to Chesterfield but not which way. To me it seems to make sense to do this as another train tram route. There are plenty of places new stops could be added (or old stations reinstated) such as Unstone, Whittington Moor and, if it ever happens, the new Peak development at Sheepbridge. I've thought for a long time that a park and ride just off Bowshaw roundabout would make a lot of sense as well, capture the traffic before it gets in to the denser road network of Sheffield.

The main issue is likely to be capacity (and future plans) of this route, and the ability to work trams in and around the heavy rail services. I recall that one issue with electrifying this route was with limited clearances at Dronfield - I wonder if there is scope for either a new alignment or to re-route all mainline trains a different way to resolve that issue, and as a happy aside to make it easier to make it tram-only?

I wonder also if there are plans to extend the network beyond the centre of Chesterfield - there are some big new developments on the way to Clay Cross for example.

I am actually surprised extension to Chesterfield is on the cards. There were plans for us to joint the Sheffield Mayoral authority but that got kyboshed by the council, despite there being popular local support for it, not to to mention very strong economic and social links between the two. We've now been put in to an East Midlands authority with no real say in the matter despite being an outlier in the area, so to even have the opportunity to still be better linked with Sheffield is great.

More chance of HS2 reaching Wick than Supertram extending to Chesterfield….!

 

[Teapot42]

More chance of HS2 reaching Wick than Supertram extending to Chesterfield….!

What makes you say that?

The only reason I can see would be that since we got forced out of SYMCA the difficulties of cross-border agreements would be a challenge.

I'm sure there would be more political will to serve a fairly major traffic flow. Might not be via Dronfield, but there are other routes such as Barrow Hill.