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Sheffield/Rotherham Tram-Train update

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eastwestdivide

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Back to S Yorks, a walk around today showed that the wires are strung up all the way from the new Parkgate terminus through to the Network Rail end of the Tinsley Chord. Only the short, highly-curved section that goes under the M1 remains to be wired - there are masts still to be erected there too.
 
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Seen 204 out on test recently. Hoping it comes out in service in the next couple of weeks
 

tramdan

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When I click on the link in the quote I get a facebook login page pop up saying "See more of British Tramway News on Facebook", with a photo of two trams passing each other. Where in Britain was this photo taken? Looks like somewhere close to me.


I took the photo, and can confirm that it was taken looking inbound at Sandyford stop.

Between Stillorgan and Sandyford, which of course is in Dublin, and unless An Taoiseach and An Tanaiste are keeping quiet about something over here, has not been and has never been part of Britain, (except in the British Isles geographical terms), and Luas has never been part of the British Tramway family. (Must of been the same people C4 news asked to draw the Irish Border).:D

As one of the founding creators of the page, I can confirm that the inclusion of LUAS is in reference to its location within the geographic British Isles, and there is absolutely no other meaning meant or inferred. :D
 

snowball

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Public Accounts Committee report:

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmpubacc/453/45302.htm

Conclusions and recommendations
1.Network Rail’s early cost estimates were wholly unrealistic and the Department for Transport (the Department) failed to properly challenge them. When the project was approved in May 2012, Network Rail estimated the works would cost £18.7 million. However, it had not completed the project design and did not have a clear idea of the work required. The Department accepted Network Rail’s estimates with minimal challenge and no independent assurance, agreeing a budget of £15 million on the basis that Network Rail could make efficiency savings. Both knew that the pilot was trialling technology which was new to the UK, yet neither made provision for the high level of risk and uncertainty. As the work progressed, the cost of Network Rail’s infrastructure works rose to £75.1 million–an increase of 401% against the original budget. The reasons for the increases are the same as those Network Rail encountered on projects such as the Great Western modernisation programme, where it also underestimated the scale and complexity of the works. Since Network Rail’s reclassification as a public body, the Department has enhanced its oversight and changed the way projects are approved. Network Rail has committed to only making final investment decisions after design work has been completed and quality assurance work carried out.

Recommendation: Network Rail must improve its ability to produce realistic cost estimates and ensure they make appropriate allowances for risk and uncertainty.

The Department should ensure these estimates are properly scrutinised so that it can challenge Network Rail over cost assurance and deliverability.

Both Network Rail and the Department should write to the Committee by March 2018 to explain how these new processes have improved the way that they work.

2.The Department allowed the project to continue, despite rising costs, without re-assessing whether the project offered good value for money or understanding whether it would achieve its wider strategic goals. The Department accepted the project offered ‘low’ value for money from the outset. It approved the project because of the potential strategic benefits of rolling out similar schemes elsewhere in the UK, including lower industry costs and economic benefits for the cities involved. It acknowledged, however, that these benefits were “very uncertain”. When the costs first increased in 2014, the Permanent Secretary allowed the project to proceed in order to achieve these strategic benefits. When cost increased further in 2016, the Rail Minister rejected the Department’s recommendation to cancel the project, also citing the need to achieve the strategic benefits. Despite the cost increases, the project business case was never revised. The Department acknowledged it should have challenged Network Rail harder as the project’s costs increased and the benefit-cost ratio fell.

Recommendation: The Department should put in place clear evaluation plans at the start of any future pilot projects, and re-assess the business case should there be significant cost increases and delays.

3.The Department and Network Rail do not know how much taxpayers’ money has been wasted on future-proofing for an electrification project that has now been cancelled. In July 2012, the Department announced that it would electrify the Sheffield to Doncaster line at 25kV shortly after 2019. Its decision affected the north-eastern section of the tram-train route. Network Rail originally intended to electrify the whole tram-train route using overhead powerlines at 750V. After the announcement, it proceeded with this plan but changed the design so the overhead powerlines could be converted to 25kV later with minimal disruption. In November 2014, Network Rail estimated the additional cost of this ‘future-proofing’ would be £5 million. It told us that the expected costs were now higher but could not provide an exact figure. In July 2017, the Secretary of State for Transport announced that the electrification of the Midland Mainline to the north of Kettering had been cancelled. The money spent on future-proofing Network Rail’s infrastructure works was therefore wasted.

Recommendation: The Department and Network Rail should undertake a full review of the cost of the project, establishing how much money was spent on the aborted future-proofing works, and provide the Committee with a full breakdown of these costs by the end of January 2018.

4.The Department and Network Rail have not evaluated how the lessons learned during this pilot project could reduce the costs of future tram-train schemes. Achieving the wider strategic benefits of the pilot is dependent on other tram-train schemes going ahead. It is vital, therefore, that the Department and Network Rail learn lessons from the pilot and promote these to local authorities. However, each project is different and Network Rail has not established how widely applicable technical lessons from the pilot may be. The Department is planning a three-stage post-project evaluation, with reviews in May 2018, early 2019 and late 2020. It has not, however, assessed how the pilot project might reduce the cost of future tram-train schemes. The Department has not actively promoted the estimated costs and benefits of tram-train projects to local authorities, and at present, the scale of the cost increases do not send out good signs. There is potential interest from Manchester, Glasgow, Cardiff and Blackpool but at present there are no firm plans for further tram-train projects.

Recommendation: The Department and Network Rail should, by the end of March 2018, write to the Committee with their assessment of the potential cost savings to future projects and what they calculate is an efficient price of building a tram-train system.

The Department should publish its formal evaluations of the project, including a full assessment of the project as a whole, not just the Network Rail elements.
 

MarkyT

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On point 3 regarding MML electrification cancellation north of Kettering, I assume the committee is unaware that running of HS2 trains to Sheffield will require 25kV wiring of MML from near Clay Cross and through the Sheffield area, possibly beyond through Rotherham to another junction back onto HS2 as well. Like the committee, I question the wisdom of full 25kV compatibility on the limited track sections of this pilot scheme; I suspect even in the long term it would have been cheaper to simply renew with 25kV equipment when required (once all the 25kV standards issues have been settled and new projects know what they must achieve from the outset rather than the shifting sands of current electrification projects). The extra costs in 'wastefully' changing to 25kV compatibility cannot be blamed on NR as this is yet another shifting sands problem from the DfT and particularly the current secretary of State. The implication of the statement about Sheffield - Doncaster electrification being 'cancelled' implies that such work will NEVER be carried out, even though the electrification assets provided under the tram train project will likely have a 40+ year life. It MAY in fact find some use in future under a more enlightened administration, and once wires are through the difficult bits of Sheffield Midland a little more additional plain line may not seem so daunting.
 

Harpers Tate

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On the basis that this was always meant to be a trial/pilot/learning exercise (etc) for potential similar schemes here there and elsewhere, in fact I think they should have gone further and actually energised the OHLE at 25kV. That would prove (or otherwise) the concept in full; not just with signalling and wheel profiles and so on; but with the Power Supply as well i.e prove the capability to do such a scheme on an already electrified line elsewhere. The vehicles were so specified - a feature that (seemingly) won't ever be used.
 

DimTim

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On the basis that this was always meant to be a trial/pilot/learning exercise (etc) for potential similar schemes here there and elsewhere, in fact I think they should have gone further and actually energised the OHLE at 25kV. That would prove (or otherwise) the concept in full; not just with signalling and wheel profiles and so on; but with the Power Supply as well i.e prove the capability to do such a scheme on an already electrified line elsewhere. The vehicles were so specified - a feature that (seemingly) won't ever be used.

Fully agree as I have commented before. There is now no ‘trial’ of changeover from 750v to 25kV. This could have easily been accommodated on the Tinsley Chord that connects Network Rail to Supertram. Network Rail 25kV, tram network - whatever the tram system uses should always be the way forward.
 

edwin_m

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The problem is that a 25kV feeder would have been needed, which is a huge cost for such a short section. It's possible that a lower-rated feeder would be a bit cheaper compared to the usual sort that feeds dozens of trains over tens of miles, but it wouldn't be worth developing one for a single application.

Changing between 25kV (or the similar 15kV) and 750DC is something that happens every few minutes on the continental tram-train networks, and is largely down to the laws of physics (contrary to what some might think these are the same in the UK).

Tram-trains have a 30-year lifespan and the infrastructure probably closer to 50 years, and it is quite likely that 25kV operation will be needed sometime during that timeframe. Also as this is a trial the tram-trains might end up being withdrawn, and a dual-voltage capability makes them more easy to sell overseas. So making the necessary provision on the vehicles and arguably on the track too seems quite reasonable.
 

Harpers Tate

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The problem is that a 25kV feeder would have been needed, which is a huge cost for such a short section......
Yes, but cost-cutting, surely, isn't the purpose of a pilot scheme. Proof of concept (of which, in this case, one potentially substantial element has been omitted) is surely the end game. In any case, it doesn't appear that overall project efficiency and speed were factors.
 

TC60054

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The problem is that a 25kV feeder would have been needed, which is a huge cost for such a short section. It's possible that a lower-rated feeder would be a bit cheaper compared to the usual sort that feeds dozens of trains over tens of miles, but it wouldn't be worth developing one for a single application.

Changing between 25kV (or the similar 15kV) and 750DC is something that happens every few minutes on the continental tram-train networks, and is largely down to the laws of physics (contrary to what some might think these are the same in the UK).

Tram-trains have a 30-year lifespan and the infrastructure probably closer to 50 years, and it is quite likely that 25kV operation will be needed sometime during that timeframe. Also as this is a trial the tram-trains might end up being withdrawn, and a dual-voltage capability makes them more easy to sell overseas. So making the necessary provision on the vehicles and arguably on the track too seems quite reasonable.

I highly doubt that if the trial is deemed as such a failure that services won't even continue to Rotherham then the Citylinks will be laid up and sold on. You just simply have to look at the state of the tramway in the last two weeks that the Citylinks have been grounded to see how much Supertram is already relying on them. With an ageing fleet of trams with no plans for replacement yet, I'd assume that if an extra seven trams suddenly came available for no extra cost, they'd be used, regardless of the new timetable being brought in next year.
 

MarkyT

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Yes, but cost-cutting, surely, isn't the purpose of a pilot scheme. Proof of concept (of which, in this case, one potentially substantial element has been omitted) is surely the end game. In any case, it doesn't appear that overall project efficiency and speed were factors.

Pilot schemes usually carry an element of additional risk and cost over a nominal value of the facilties delivered in business terms, but it shouldn't be open ended but rather set against an additional value in the equation based on a projection of the usefulness of the future technology demonstrated. The same was true of the ERTMS pilot on the Cambrian, much more expensive than conventional resignalling it turned out but proving the concepts, writing many of the new rules and procedures for further UK roll out. For Sheffield - Rotherham, putting in a very small capacity 25kV feeder powered from a standard DNO industrial supply rather than a major grid connection may very well have been possible, but would have been yet more novel technology to trial at risk, although the technology proven might well prove useful for other smaller 25kV schemes assuming any are ever authorised again. The alternative of putting in a high capacity conventional grid feeder would have been ludicrous in the context of this small scheme. When HS2 arrives over conventional trackage in the Sheffield area, electrification will be necessary, with a feeder somewhere in the area. That is the time to consider a 25kV conversion of the tram train route, when it can be tagged on fairly easily, as also would be the relatively small scheme for wires extended onwards through Mexborough to Doncaster.
 

Nonsense

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It’s right that scrutiny is given to this project. I’ve followed it from the beginning out of personal curiosity but never understood why it was necessary.

What didn’t they know that a trial was necessary to establish?

That rail vehicles could meet the safety and technical standards of heavy and light rail standards?

That two operators could collaborate?

That passengers could cope with boarding a tram at street level but alight at a station?

What was the £75 million quid point? If the question had been ‘is it possible to run supertrams from Sheffield to Rotherham, it wouldn’t have taken 75 million pound to find that, obviously, it was. Why is the government even involved?

It’s a farce!
 

WaveyDavey

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Sorry if this has already been mentioned before.....

Do the new Citylink trams have a coupling behind the bumper area? Just thinking if one ever failed whilst on the rail network between Parkgate and Tinsley there would be a need to be able to recover it to get the train services moving again.

If so would it be case of it having to be another CityLink that would need to rescue the failed tram??? In which case you can see it possibly being a long drawn out affair with all but one of them being planned to be in use on public service at any one time and the other being under maintenance.
 

TC60054

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Sorry if this has already been mentioned before.....

Do the new Citylink trams have a coupling behind the bumper area? Just thinking if one ever failed whilst on the rail network between Parkgate and Tinsley there would be a need to be able to recover it to get the train services moving again.

If so would it be case of it having to be another CityLink that would need to rescue the failed tram??? In which case you can see it possibly being a long drawn out affair with all but one of them being planned to be in use on public service at any one time and the other being under maintenance.

Yes an emergency use only Albert bar coupling the same that is found on most UK trams.
Citylinks can rescue Citylinks.
At one time there was only one or two Supertrams that could rescue Citylinks, I'm not sure if this is still the case or not however, however it's certainly possible to use the two to rescue each other, even if not preferable.
 

Harpers Tate

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I wonder what the comparision is between how long it's likely to take (from incident to track clear and re-opened for use) comparing
1: A tram failed on the Tram Line
2: A tram failed on the Railway
3: A train failed on the Railway.
 

Dentonian

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I'm assuming there isn't a seperate thread, but does anyone know anything about proposals for Tram/Train in/to Gtr. Manchester, specifically on the current Hope Valley Line? Ie. Time scales, rolling stock quality, stops (if different from current Stations); frequency, journey times etc.
 

skifans

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I'm assuming there isn't a seperate thread, but does anyone know anything about proposals for Tram/Train in/to Gtr. Manchester, specifically on the current Hope Valley Line? Ie. Time scales, rolling stock quality, stops (if different from current Stations); frequency, journey times etc.
Never heard about this, have you got any links/information?
 

snowball

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It's all quite long way off yet. There are reports by TfGM about their aspirations and priorities for tram-trains but if I google "TfGM tram-train" the one that comes up first is this one from 2013:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...strategy.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3znYI40_5qBoXoklpWZGUG

I'm sure there must be more recent ones than that. There's probably something about it under their strategy for 2040 here:

https://www.tfgm.com/2040

There's a 55-page thread on the subject on Skyscrapercity but with a lot of noise in it:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1339972

Some of the regulars on SSC will have the latest info at their fingertips, and some of them also write on this forum, so with luck one of them will come by.
 

D365

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Wasn't there a long term "proposal" to turn the Rose Hill terminators over to Metrolink?
 

Goldie

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Does anyone know how many people (if any) SYPTE has working on the tram train project, and what their roles are? I'd be interested in finding out whether the PTE has any plans - or even the capability in terms of personnel to make any plans - to expand routes covered by tram trains in South Yorkshire once the current project is operating satisfactorily. Swinton and / or Doncaster; Stocksbridge (via the stump of the Woodhead Route); Dore; and places along the Rother Valley like Beighton and Killamarsh all look like fairly sensible future extensions of the system.
 

skifans

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It's all quite long way off yet. There are reports by TfGM about their aspirations and priorities for tram-trains but if I google "TfGM tram-train" the one that comes up first is this one from 2013:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiu0vTA_7bYAhXkDsAKHcS4Cv0QFggpMAA&url=http://www.transportforgreatermanchestercommittee.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/4702/item_08_tram-train_strategy.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3znYI40_5qBoXoklpWZGUG

I'm sure there must be more recent ones than that. There's probably something about it under their strategy for 2040 here:

https://www.tfgm.com/2040

There's a 55-page thread on the subject on Skyscrapercity but with a lot of noise in it:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1339972

Some of the regulars on SSC will have the latest info at their fingertips, and some of them also write on this forum, so with luck one of them will come by.
Interesting, thanks.
 

samuel791

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Following the new software updates and changes made to the braking system, tram-trains should start to see operation again as additional trams from Monday 8 January.

Whether or not drivers refuse to drive them in service following the hydraulic brake failure that some have sustained, remains to be foreseen! ;)
 

Goldie

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I had chance to have a look at the route from Parkgate to the Tinsley Chord early on Sunday morning - the resulting photos are above (including bonus blurry tram photo to finish). As you can see, there was a ballast train - complete with Class 66 - parked on the Sheffield bound line just outside Rotherham Central, so presumably there is still work taking place to the track itself somewhere along the route. Contractors were adding pointed coping stones to the parapet of the road bridge next to Rotherham Central, and hopefully you can see from the photographs that there are still short lengths of rail and overhead line missing on the Tinsley Chord.

At Parkgate, there is a cut through between two of the retail units that I assume will be used to give direct access to the tram stop, once it is open - but the cut through was blocked off when I visited, so I had to take the long walk round through the service yards behind the units. I'd hope that a clearly marked pedestrian route and signage will make an appearance here before services start running - although presumably that will need to be funded by the retail park's owner.

Stopping off at Magna was a bit of an eye opener. I hadn't realised that the tram train route runs right past the main entrance. That makes the omission of a stop at Magna an even stranger decision.
 
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