Sharing tickets

[Oswyntail]

This question has come to me from reading a number of the fascinating threads in this sub-forum. Can anyone explain to me why it is against the regulations for a ticket to be used by anyone other than the purchaser or named individual. For instance: on the e-ticket thread, the authorities appear really vexed because the individual travelling provides inconsistent identification; several Railcard threads seem to suggest (probably only half correctly) that only the Railcard holder should be issued with a ticket; advance ticket holders also seem to need id of stringent levels. Not to mention the apparent silliness in saying that the return portion of a ticket cannot be handed over to another party, as if anyone could check that.
I can understand precautions like these in international air travel, where there might need to be a correlation between passenger lists and passengers. But, on domestic rail, as I see it the TOC has received funds for provision of a service; it should not affect the TOC if the users of the service vary (eg, the seat used on the return portion is being used, it surely doesn't matter by whom). So who or what is being protected by these conditions? Not the customer using the e-ticket, who seems to be suspected of theft at the drop of a hat. And, if a ticket is stolen, what has that to do with the TOC anyway? I dare say there will be those who say because it is enshrined in the mountains of legalistic literature it is right and just. That is rubbish. Who actually benefits from these regulations? And, if (as i suspect) no one does, why are they maintained?

 

[Daz28]

I expect it is an attempt to prevent the resale of tickets that have already been used. As we know, many tickets do not get checked, and if there were no regulation preventing it, someone could easily use their ticket and then give/sell it on to someone else to use a second time. It is hard to stop this physically, but at least having a regulation forbidding it may act as some deterrent.

There has previously been a vibrant black market in people selling used one day travelcards in London, where those travelling out for the evening could buy a travelcard used by someone else during the day. Oyster seems to have reduced the impact of this significantly.

Our rail ticket structure, with one month validities and unlimited break of journey is ripe for abuse, and our little paper tickets and hole punches offer little protection.

 

[rail-britain]

As above, it is an attempt to prevent the resale of tickets, especially before or after their use

In the event that it is witnessed by a member of staff of any TOC they would then have the right to either refuse or in extreme cases to withdraw that ticket

However, additional "safeguards" have been put into place but many of these are restrictive and do not work as they are intended

For example, person A wants to travel on Sunday so person B buys that ticket in advance for them using a debit or credit card, as person A does not have the means for making payment
As a result person A is not carrying the payment method card and is unable to collect the ticket that was purchased for their use

Equally, a person outwith Britain cannot buy such a ticket until they are within Britain
Therefore it is almost impossible for them to take advantage of Advance fares

Finally, the tickets are printed with the disclaimer "Non-transferable"
This is to prevent staff from arranging the resale of tickets, often known as skimming or cash converting
Hence when buying a ticket at a station, ask for a receipt and compare the ticket numbers to ensure they match
If not, then report the matter for investigation

 

[MikeWh]

There has previously been a vibrant black market in people selling used one day travelcards in London, where those travelling out for the evening could buy a travelcard used by someone else during the day. Oyster seems to have reduced the impact of this significantly.

That is a very interesting one. An Oystercard with a travelcard season stored on it can only be used by the person who bought the season, but TfL are quite happy for a PAYG Oystercard to be shared around as long as only one person uses it at a time. So I can use my card in the daytime, run up a one-day cap, then give the card to my wife to use for free. I guess the fact that an Oystercard has a refundable deposit (currently £3, will be £5 next year) means that selling it on to a stranger is not so attractive, but it is encouraging ticket sharing of the sort that was prohibited before Oyster.

 

[alexjames]

Is that any different to the old (and current) paper travelcard?

I have in the past used a one day travelcard during the day and passed it on to my wife for evening usage. Probably not totally legal but completely impossible to detect. Doing the same with an Oyster has an identical effect. The only way to stop it woul be to make photocards mandatory for all Oyster users and that is wholly impracticable

 

[John @ home]

Is that any different to the old (and current) paper travelcard?

Paper Travelcards were (and are) explicitly Not Transferable. Until 2007 it was printed on the back of each ticket, but that has now been replaced by a general reference to the Conditions of Carriage which contain the restriction.

An Oyster card containing Adult Pay-As-You-Go credit only is explicitly transferable. But as soon as a season ticket or a discount is added it becomes Not Transferable for the duration of the ticket or discount.

 

[yorkie]

Is that any different to the old (and current) paper travelcard?

I have in the past used a one day travelcard during the day and passed it on to my wife for evening usage. Probably not totally legal but completely impossible to detect. Doing the same with an Oyster has an identical effect. The only way to stop it woul be to make photocards mandatory for all Oyster users and that is wholly impracticable

Yes it is different. Although not officially permitted, in reality no-one is really likely to mind you doing that. But what people do mind (and rightly so) is the touts profitting from used Travelcards. You don't see them so much these days but about 4 years ago a tout at King's Cross asked if I had finished with my Travelcard. I said yes, and got my Travelcard out of my wallet and ripped it up as I walked toward the departure board. He did not like that!!! The touts then sell the Travelcards to people who are arriving from mainline trains later in the evening. The profit is then spent on drugs etc.

These problems aren't going to happen with an Oyster card, so TfL have no problem with PAYG cards being transferred. This is sensible.

 

[londonbridge]

It's always made me laugh how they can argue that you can give your Oystercard to another person to use if it only contains PAYG credit,but not if it contains a travelcard,as pointed out earlier unless you have to carry a photocard or other id surely this is imppossible to police. What is there to stop a night shift worker using,say,a weekly travelcard to get to work at night and home first thing in the morning,then giving it to his wife to use to get to work and back during the day whilst he's at home asleep?

 

[alexjames]

I think we are agreed that there is nothing to prevent you "recycling" a paper travelcard to a spouse or other close connection.

But the loss to LUL is immaterial. Of the vast numbers of travelcards I have possessed in pre-Oyster days, only two or three were recycled to my wife or son. The idea of one party working nights, the other on the dayshift with a swap of cards as they meet at the doorstep is pleasant to contemplate. However I doubt whether it has happened a dozen times today or any other day.

Yorkie is apposite to note the diminution in the number of touts scrounging and reselling paper travelcards. There used to be hordes of them at KX. I never did understand why BTP failed to round them up. I appreciate that there was little available in the way of effective judicial sanction againsrt such trash but BTP should have done something if only to reduce the negative impression given to incoming tourists etc.

 

[sheff1]

I have noticed that all the tickets I book online now have my surname printed on the ticket when I collect it. This never used to happen.

Why has this been intoduced ? There is no requirement to carry any ID when using the tickets, so this would not prevent use by someone else.

 

[londonbridge]

When I said 'travelcard' I should have made clear I meant a travelcard loaded on Oyster. As far as I can tell there is no way to police people giving their Oystercard to a friend or another family member to use regardless of whether it contains PAYG credit or a travelcard.

 

[Oswyntail]

Even with Travelcard-type tickets, is there a problem for the TOC? If they have sold an "unlimited travel" style ticket, then they have got their revenue, and it makes no odds whether the bum on the seat is mine or my neighbours. I can see that touts are a problem, but that is a Police matter, and does not affect the TOC. So, I ask again, provided that only one person at a time is using the ticket, and that it is not used invalidly over the same journey many times, why do TOCs insist on these individual checks?

 

[yorkie]

If you officially allow it, you will have touts, and people buying cheap Advance tickets and then selling them. Yes, you could say that tickets cannot be re-sold and you could say Advance tickets cannot be transferreable, but I think they won't want to budge an inch on this matter as they'll be worried about opening the floodgates.

They know that people "transferring" a ticket among family members is undetectable but they aren't bothered about that.

 

[maddeningcrowds]

they have got their revenue, and it makes no odds whether the bum on the seat is mine or my neighbours

Fuzzy logic. Travelcards are sold (and the revenue model designed) on a per passenger basis, not a per seat basis.

 

[Greenback]

Even with Travelcard-type tickets, is there a problem for the TOC? If they have sold an "unlimited travel" style ticket, then they have got their revenue, and it makes no odds whether the bum on the seat is mine or my neighbours. I can see that touts are a problem, but that is a Police matter, and does not affect the TOC. So, I ask again, provided that only one person at a time is using the ticket, and that it is not used invalidly over the same journey many times, why do TOCs insist on these individual checks?

If your neighbour was going to travel anyway, the company has lost on the fare they would have paid, whether that be another travelcard or a different type of ticket. It does, therefore, make a difference, especially if that scenario is compounded several thousand times per day!

If, on the other hand, your neighbour is only travelling because you gave them the ticket, they are, in effect, simply replacing yourself as the travelcard holder, so your argument sounds more reasonable!

 

[4SRKT]

When I travel on a Travelcard in London I always leave the card on a ticket machine after I've finished so that someone else can use it. I noticed this practice when I lived there and sometimes benefited from it myself.

There, I've said it now. I expect I'll be hounded by the outraged ticket extremists on here who'll wish cancer on me or something, but I'm game.

 

[mickey]

I can see the point of not being allowed to transfer a ticket that has been used but I see nothing wrong with buying a ticket on my account fully intending it to be used by someone else. It will have my name printed on the bottom but I don't think anyone would ever say or do anything about it and I think it would be unfair to penalise people for it.

When Wizzair started they realised not everyone in their initial target market (CEE) had a debit or credit card so they explicitly told people to get a friend to buy tickets for them. I see no reason for TOCs to complain about the same, whatever the reason.

 

[Greenback]

When I travel on a Travelcard in London I always leave the card on a ticket machine after I've finished so that someone else can use it. I noticed this practice when I lived there and sometimes benefited from it myself.

There, I've said it now. I expect I'll be hounded by the outraged ticket extremists on here who'll wish cancer on me or something, but I'm game.

That sort of thing has been going on for years and I don't think it's possible to stop it! it obviously does lead to lost revenue though.