Sharing an Oyster PAYG card with railcard

[MikeWh]

OK, I know it's not allowed normally because you must have a railcard to back up the discount entitlement. But, what about two senior railcard holders from "up norf" who occasionally visit London but not at the same time. Is there anything to stop them sharing an Oyster card with discount set? AFAIK the only detail taken from the railcard is the expiry date, but is that just used to tell the Oyster system when to stop discounting, or do revenue staff with their MOVie readers see the date. If they do, would they be concerned if it didn't match? Obviously I'm not talking about the scenario where the railcard has expired but not the discount because that would be the same problem as having discounted rail tickets without a valid railcard.

 

[revenueadvice]

The MOVie reader does display the expiry date of any discounts applied too the Oyster card but I would say it is unlikely they would notice depending on how busy they are and how much time they have too spend looking at the tickets as you have to scroll through a bit on the MOVie reader to get to the expiry date of the discount....Most of the time revenue inspectors are looking to quickly see if the Oyster has been touched in or not.

However if they do notice then you or your partner whoever is using the discounted Oyster without the appropriate rail card could be in trouble as the rail card discounts are not transferable and although the person using it would have a rail card with them, revenue staff would want to investigate who's oyster card it is. This could lead to an MG11 witness statement being taken under caution and potential prosecution of 1 or both people if they can prove that the Oyster card was given too the other person to help them avoid their fare.

I don't think its worth the risk to save about 70p per journey..But then I see a lot of people end up prosecuted because of avoiding train fares of less than £5!

Why not just get another Oyster card and add the other persons discount to that one?

 

[LexyBoy]

The TfL CoC (section 5.1) do seem unambigous on this point.

I would have thought that it would be OK for someone else with the same Railcard to use an Oyster with Railcard loaded, as neither a ticket nor a railcard is being transferred, but by the book it is not. I'd be very surprised if an inspector would look any further after confirming that the correct, valid, Railcard is held.
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This could lead to an MG11 witness statement being taken under caution and potential prosecution of 1 or both people if they can prove that the Oyster card was given too the other person to help them avoid their fare.

How would they prove there was any intention to avoid the fare, when both people are entitled to the same fare? Or would the argument be that since the Oyster cannot be transferred, that passenger 2 was not entitled to use it and was thus ticketless / avoided the cost of a paper ticket?

Not to say that a prosecution is impossible, though wouldn't a PF be the first option?

 

[revenueadvice]

The only way to "prove" it would be for one person to admit it. Its amazing what people say sometimes to drop themselves or others in it. "Oh yeah my husband gave me his oyster because mine doesn't have a rail card discount on it" follow on question..."So your husband gave you his discounted Oyster so you could avoid paying the full fare for your journey?" If they so no..they are clearly lying as they have already said why they were given the rail card, if they say yes they have admitted guilt only other real option is "no comment" and no comment doesn't ever look good!

I don't believe a penalty fare would be the correct option as they are carrying their rail card. Most penalty fare notices have reason for issuing the penalty fare tick boxes. One is "no supporting documents" which is the one that should be ticked for lack of rail card. I feel they would probably win an appeal...It would also depend who the revenue staff is. Some cannot take MG11 statements under caution so they might just issue a penalty. I think a revenue protection inspector might want to take it further.

 

[maniacmartin]

Here is what LexyBoy linked to:

f you have an Oyster photocard or Oyster card with a valid discount concession on it, you cannot transfer it to anyone else to use. If you have an Oyster card or Oyster photocard with a valid discount concession on it, you can only use it if you have the appropriate supporting photocard or National Railcard with you at all times, including when you are purchasing a ticket or topping up an Oyster card, irrespective of the service you are using.

However, I'm not yet fully convinced that breaching these conditions using PAYG would mean that the passenger wouldn't hold a valid ticket if they presented the same type of railcard, as the Oyster is just a medium which tickets are loaded onto.

 

[MikeWh]

Thanks for the comments so far.

... "Oh yeah my husband gave me his oyster because mine doesn't have a rail card discount on it" follow on question..."So your husband gave you his discounted Oyster so you could avoid paying the full fare for your journey?"

Just to clarify. It's two people, each with a senior railcard, but only one Oyster card. They have happily shared the Oyster before now because they didn't have railcards, but now they both do.

Most important thing said so far is that the expiry date is on a further screen on the MOVie. So the RPI would check that the card was touched in and check that the passenger had a valid railcard. It would seem unlikely that they would look further unless something gave them cause for suspicion.

I have suggested two cards might be safer, but other than having a second £5 deposit earning interest in TfL's bank account there is absolutely no revenue loss to either TfL or a TOC.