Shared Tracks Between LU and National Rail

[Mordac]

Are there any other sections, other than between Amersham and Harrow-on-the-Hill on the Metropolitan Line, where London Underground trains share tracks (not just alignments) with National Rail services?

 

[matt_world2004]

Are there any other sections, other than between Amersham and Harrow-on-the-Hill on the Metropolitan Line, where London Underground trains share tracks (not just alignments) with National Rail services?

Bakerloo north of queens park
District line. South of turnham green
East Putney wimbledon too but no scheduled national raol service runs that route at the moment

 

[MikeWh]

Bakerloo north of Queens Park
District line. South of Turnham Green
East Putney Wimbledon too but no scheduled national rail service runs that route at the moment

Isn't there a late service towards Woking which runs via that route for route knowledge retention?

 

[Domh245]

Isn't there a late service towards Woking which runs via that route for route knowledge retention?

3 service trains a day + a bunch of ECS movements.

As seen here

 

[Mordac]

Thank you very much for this, to all who replied!

 

[LU_timetabler]

The Met section is unique in that it is Met track /signalling that Chiltern/National Rail services are allowed to use, where as all the others are the reverse.

 

[ValleyLines142]

I caught the 1825 Waterloo to Basingstoke last Friday, which ran via Southfields to Wimbledon. I was remarkably surprised to see us pass in front of a waiting Wimbledon-bound S8 at East Putney! I thought it was a bit odd that we were on LU territory!

 

[Mojo]

The Met section is unique in that it is Met track /signalling that Chiltern/National Rail services are allowed to use, where as all the others are the reverse.

Technically the Wimbledon branch, up to the end of the platforms at Wimbledon, is owned by LU, it was sold/transferred from BR in 1994. Signalling and power supply arrangements are however controlled by Network Rail.

 

[bluegoblin7]

I caught the 1825 Waterloo to Basingstoke last Friday, which ran via Southfields to Wimbledon. I was remarkably surprised to see us pass in front of a waiting Wimbledon-bound S8 at East Putney! I thought it was a bit odd that we were on LU territory!

It'll have been an S7 that you passed - S8s are used exclusively on the Met line and aren't cleared* elsewhere.

(*Okay, they can run in certain places under certain circumstances, but this doesn't include the Wimbledon branch and even where they can, never in service.)

 

[ValleyLines142]

It'll have been an S7 that you passed - S8s are used exclusively on the Met line and aren't cleared* elsewhere.

(*Okay, they can run in certain places under certain circumstances, but this doesn't include the Wimbledon branch and even where they can, never in service.)

Was a typo sorry! I do this more often than not on here!

 

[Mag_seven]

Was a typo sorry! I do this more often than not on here!

I knew what you meant!

Getting back on to the subject hand, was there nor a Railtrack proposal around about 1995 to connect the sub-surface line at Paddington suburban to the main line and run main line local trains on it?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

How will it pan out when TBTC or trains are run auto on these stretches ? Will it be all auto or a mix and if a mix how will it be signalled ?

 

[Nym]

How will it pan out when TBTC or trains are run auto on these stretches ? Will it be all auto or a mix and if a mix how will it be signalled ?

CBTC, and I don't think anyone knows yet...

I strongly suspect track circuits being retained with a very comms heavy implementation.

 

[edwin_m]

I knew what you meant!

Getting back on to the subject hand, was there nor a Railtrack proposal around about 1995 to connect the sub-surface line at Paddington suburban to the main line and run main line local trains on it?

It was mooted that Railtrack would take over the whole of the sub-surface lines and run through trains from various main lines Thameslink-style. History doesn't relate how this could have worked, when the routes in question were already at capacity and would still need the same number of trains from the existing Underground branches.

If you thought the PPP was bad, this would have been something else.

 

[GW43125]

The Met section is unique in that it is Met track /signalling that Chiltern/National Rail services are allowed to use, where as all the others are the reverse.

Is it though? That's certainly the case on the local lines, but on the main lines (where Chiltern run), it looks a lot like standard BR 4-aspect signalling.

 

[Dstock7080]

Is it though? That's certainly the case on the local lines, but on the main lines (where Chiltern run), it looks a lot like standard BR 4-aspect signalling.

It is LU 4-aspect signalling, with trainstops and fog-repeaters.

 

[Bookd]

I knew what you meant!

Getting back on to the subject hand, was there nor a Railtrack proposal around about 1995 to connect the sub-surface line at Paddington suburban to the main line and run main line local trains on it?

A century ago there were some peak hour through trains from Windsor and Eton Central to Aldgate, crossing to what is now the H&C somewhere near Royal Oak, but I believe that the crossover is long gone.
In those days there would be much less passenger traffic on the north side of the Circle, but there was a lot of coal and other freight traffic to such as Smithfield and Snow Hill.

 

[jopsuk]

When built wasn't it dual gauge (Stevenson Standard and Brunel Broad) as far as Smithfields?

 

[Dstock7080]

How will it pan out when TBTC or trains are run auto on these stretches ? Will it be all auto or a mix and if a mix how will it be signalled ?

Thales have promised LU that ATC can be overlaid onto the existing system on the Richmond branch, with existing lineside signals remaining in current position.

On the LU owned Wimbledon branch the ATC system will be the principal driver and lineside signals will be repositioned to match the ATC sections. (I believe the MET Line will be the same).
A lineside signal will display a blue aspect for a detected ATC fitted train, whereas normal aspects would be shown for non-ATC fitted trains. It would be quite possible for two ATC fitted trains to go past a traditional signal post, displaying blue, and enter the section in the rear of that signal. However only one non-ATC fitted train would be permitted to enter the same section.

Using sleeper mounted tags and onboard axle counters the ATC system can detect a trains position to within 15cm.

Unfortunately Network Rail, who currently have no Automatic train operations within their Rule Book, remain unconvinced by Thales submissions!

 

[Nym]

Unfortunately Network Rail, who currently have no Automatic train operations within their Rule Book, remain unconvinced by Thales submissions!

Doesn't surprise me..

Where you have to have trains fitted with different protection systems it's always best to have the detection (and locking) system be based in the track so that you don't need to have multiple systems feed into the locking computers / frames.

The only ATO capable installations I've seen that would fit that are either;

Westinghouse / Invensys / Siemens DTG-R with it's three aspect signals, with potentially a 4th aspect to run as Green / Yellow / Blue / Red with intermediate block marker boards, any headed signal can also easily incorporate Train Stops, AWS magnets, TPWS loops, Chiltern ATP Loops or even anything up to ERTMS / ETCS Level 1 or Level 2.

Alternatively one could make use of ETRMS / ETCS from day one at Level 3 and not permit any non-ETCS fitted trains to use the line.

Nothing else really allows any level of integration that isn't going to cause significant issues with 'back locking' areas of authority into the CBTC. Where you will essentially need to 'check in' all ATP fitted trains into a zone, probably knowing the number of fitted axles and making use of axle counters, the only other option would be to mode select each zone between CBTC and Track Circuit modes, but that will be exceedingly difficult to achieve on a train by train basis for a mixed traffic railway.

 

[jopsuk]

carto.metro shows the southern boundary between National Rail (Chiltern) and LU (Metropolitan) control as being alongside Northwick Park

 

[Mojo]

carto.metro shows the southern boundary between National Rail (Chiltern) and LU (Metropolitan) control as being alongside Northwick Park

The maintenance boundary is at kilometre post 61.25 (for reference Harrow on the Hill station subway is at 61.81km and Northwick Park subway at 60.54km).

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Doesn't surprise me..

Where you have to have trains fitted with different protection systems it's always best to have the detection (and locking) system be based in the track so that you don't need to have multiple systems feed into the locking computers / frames.

The only ATO capable installations I've seen that would fit that are either;

Westinghouse / Invensys / Siemens DTG-R with it's three aspect signals, with potentially a 4th aspect to run as Green / Yellow / Blue / Red with intermediate block marker boards, any headed signal can also easily incorporate Train Stops, AWS magnets, TPWS loops, Chiltern ATP Loops or even anything up to ERTMS / ETCS Level 1 or Level 2.

Alternatively one could make use of ETRMS / ETCS from day one at Level 3 and not permit any non-ETCS fitted trains to use the line.

Nothing else really allows any level of integration that isn't going to cause significant issues with 'back locking' areas of authority into the CBTC. Where you will essentially need to 'check in' all ATP fitted trains into a zone, probably knowing the number of fitted axles and making use of axle counters, the only other option would be to mode select each zone between CBTC and Track Circuit modes, but that will be exceedingly difficult to achieve on a train by train basis for a mixed traffic railway.

It's sounding uber-expensive already - can see the 'fast' being lost to Chiltern from Harrow to Moor Park to cut costs.

 

[bramling]

Bakerloo north of queens park
District line. South of turnham green
East Putney wimbledon too but no scheduled national raol service runs that route at the moment

A slight addition to the above: Bakerloo trains can and do run as far south as Kilburn High Road in emergency. If a Queen's Park to Harrow shuttle service is required for any reason the standard way of doing it will be in service to Queen's Park then empty reversing via Kilburn High Road up platform.

 

[bramling]

Thales have promised LU that ATC can be overlaid onto the existing system on the Richmond branch, with existing lineside signals remaining in current position.

On the LU owned Wimbledon branch the ATC system will be the principal driver and lineside signals will be repositioned to match the ATC sections. (I believe the MET Line will be the same).
A lineside signal will display a blue aspect for a detected ATC fitted train, whereas normal aspects would be shown for non-ATC fitted trains. It would be quite possible for two ATC fitted trains to go past a traditional signal post, displaying blue, and enter the section in the rear of that signal. However only one non-ATC fitted train would be permitted to enter the same section.

Using sleeper mounted tags and onboard axle counters the ATC system can detect a trains position to within 15cm.

Unfortunately Network Rail, who currently have no Automatic train operations within their Rule Book, remain unconvinced by Thales submissions!

To add to this, my understanding is current plans have the Harrow-Amersham section fitted with lineside signalling primarily Network Rail standards as they will be the main if not sole user of this lineside signalling. This would go as far as to include features such as position-light shunt signals and red-bordered PSR signs. However the Uxbridge branch will be done to LU standards to facilitate a seamless interface for the Piccadilly Line. Time will tell what actually materialises...

 

[greatkingrat]

A century ago there were some peak hour through trains from Windsor and Eton Central to Aldgate, crossing to what is now the H&C somewhere near Royal Oak, but I believe that the crossover is long gone.
In those days there would be much less passenger traffic on the north side of the Circle, but there was a lot of coal and other freight traffic to such as Smithfield and Snow Hill.

I believe the through trains from Windsor to the City actually ran on the District line via Ealing Broadway.

 

[pdeaves]

I believe the through trains from Windsor to the City actually ran on the District line via Ealing Broadway.

Certainly Windsor to Southend trains did that.

 

[LU_timetabler]

A slight addition to the above: Bakerloo trains can and do run as far south as Kilburn High Road in emergency. If a Queen's Park to Harrow shuttle service is required for any reason the standard way of doing it will be in service to Queen's Park then empty reversing via Kilburn High Road up platform.

The overnight Sleet trains are timetables to do this.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

crossing to what is now the H&C somewhere near Royal Oak, but I believe that the crossover is long gone.

The Bishops Road station (Paddington suburban) used to have four electrified tracks, so a layout similar to Edgware Road. It was remodelled in the mid 1960s to segregate the H&C and remove the junction to the main line. I think the route went around the Royal Oak dive under, so inbound Western region and Hammersmith bound H&C were separated. If you were on a train for Paddington, you might have to wait for a H&C train to go past before entering the Bishops Road station.

 

[Bookd]

I believe the through trains from Windsor to the City actually ran on the District line via Ealing Broadway.

The 1910 Bradshaw shows these stopping at Westbourne Park and Bishops Road with no indication of any stops between there and Aldgate.
I believe that there were some through trains from the District Line to Southend but that must have been at a different time as I can't see them in this timetable