Shared level crossings between train lines and tram lines.

[stadler]

How do the level crossings work when one track is a train line and one track is a tram line both using the same level crossing? Trams are completely separate from Network Rail infrastructure and signalling (other than the Rotherham tram) so how do the signallers know where the trams are and when to lower the level crossing?

Manchester has a short section between Altrincham and Navigation Road where the mainline trains and the tram lines each have one track. This includes two full barrier level crossing at Navigation Road and at Deansgate Lane that are shared by both trains and trams and i presume that both are manually controlled by CCTV like others of this type.

Nottingham has a long section between Basford and Hucknall where the mainline trains and the tram lines each have one track. This includes one full barrier level crossing on Saint Albans Road shared by both and i presume it is manually controlled by CCTV like others of this type. There is also a second half barrier level crossing on Brickyard Drive shared by both but i believe this is an automated one so just works off sensors on both the train and tram lines.

How do these level crossings work on Navigation Road in Manchester and on Saint Albans Road in Nottingham in terms of signalling? As surely the Network Rail signaller would have to know the positions of trams to know when to lower the level crossings? So does this mean that Network Rail control the tram signalling in these areas? Or do they simply have access to tram signalling systems in order to know where the trams are?

 

[Nottingham59]

This video shows the Nottingham crossing in operation.

 

[stadler]

This video shows the Nottingham crossing in operation.

That is a different one. That level crossing in the linked video at David Lane in Basford is only for the train line. It does not cover the tram line and trams cross when barriers are still open. The ones i am talking about in Nottingham are further up towards Hucknall on both Saint Albans Road (manually controlled full barrier) and Brickyard Lane (automatic half barrier) and the two in Manchester on both Navigation Road (manually controlled full barrier) and Deansgate Lane (manually controlled full barrier) which are all actually shared level crossings that lower for both trains and trams.

These are the four ones that i am referring to here:

Nottingham (Saint Albans Road) Full Barrier:

Nottingham (Brickyard Lane) Half Barrier:

Manchester (Navigation Road) Full Barrier:

Manchester (Deansgate Lane) Full Barrier:

I think these four are unique in being the only ones in the UK shared by both trains and trams.

 

[Rail Ranger]

South of Timperley the Metrolink Altrincham line is owned by Network Rail. Deansgate Junction signal box controls the signalling for both trains and trams including Navigation Road level crossing. BR re-signalled the area in 1991 with an SSI prior to the conversion of the Altrincham line to Metrolink.

 

[Flange Squeal]

How do the level crossings work when one track is a train line and one track is a tram line both using the same level crossing? Trams are completely separate from Network Rail infrastructure and signalling (other than the Rotherham tram) so how do the signallers know where the trams are and when to lower the level crossing?

Manchester has a short section between Altrincham and Navigation Road where the mainline trains and the tram lines each have one track. This includes one full barrier level crossing at Navigation Road shared by both and i presume it is manually controlled by CCTV like others of this type.

Nottingham has a long section between Basford and Hucknall where the mainline trains and the tram lines each have one track. This includes one full barrier level crossing on Saint Albans Road shared by both and i presume it is manually controlled by CCTV like others of this type. There is also a second half barrier level crossing on Brickyard Drive shared by both but i believe this is an automated one so just works off sensors on both the train and tram lines.

How do these level crossings work on Navigation Road in Manchester and on Saint Albans Road in Nottingham in terms of signalling? As surely the Network Rail signaller would have to know the positions of trams to know when to lower the level crossings? So does this mean that Network Rail control the tram signalling in these areas? Or do they simply have access to tram signalling systems in order to know where the trams are?

The Altrincham - Navigation Road - Timperley section is actually Network Rail infrastructure (albeit I believe Metrolink maintain the overhead line equipment), controlled by colour light signals by Deansgate Junction signal box.

Edit: Looks like myself and @Rail Ranger must've been typing around the same time!

 

[cool110]

Trams are completely separate from Network Rail infrastructure and signalling (other than the Rotherham tram) so how do the signallers know where the trams are and when to lower the level crossing?

There are more exceptions than that, the Altrincham and Navigation Road section of Metrolink actually uses a 2 aspect version of NR signalling with signal numbers in the 500s.

 

[stadler]

South of Timperley the Metrolink Altrincham line is owned by Network Rail. Deansgate Junction signal box controls the signalling for both trains and trams including Navigation Road level crossing. BR re-signalled the area in 1991 with an SSI prior to the conversion of the Altrincham line to Metrolink.

The Altrincham - Navigation Road - Timperley section is actually Network Rail infrastructure (albeit I believe Metrolink maintain the overhead line equipment), controlled by colour light signals by Deansgate Junction signal box.

Edit: Looks like myself and @Rail Ranger must've been typing around the same time!

There are more exceptions than that, the Altrincham and Navigation Road section of Metrolink actually uses a 2 aspect version of NR signalling with signal numbers in the 500s.
View attachment 192428

Thank you for the replies and information. Never realised that the Altrincham to Navigation Road section was Network Rail infrastructure.

Where is the actual infrastructure boundary? Does it go all the way to Timperley station or is it immeduately after the train and tram lines split from each other?

I am presuming Nottingham could well be a similar setup to this? Perhaps the section of tram line from just North of Bulwell to just South of Hucknall is actually Network Rail infrastructure?

 

[Rail Ranger]

Thr Metrolink/Network Rail boundary is south of the junctions for the Timperley reversing siding. The first Network Rail signal is DJ501, which controls entry to the single line to Navigation Road.

 

[zwk500]

I am presuming Nottingham could well be a similar setup to this? Perhaps the section of tram line from just North of Bulwell to just South of Hucknall is actually Network Rail infrastructure?

Comparing Altrincham in the Sectional Appendix: https://vaildata.uk/sa?lor=NW3023&seq=003&name=&alt=NW3023-004&alt=NW3027-003
To Bulwell: https://vaildata.uk/sa?lor=LN3255&seq=001&name= suggests that the Nottingham Trams are separately owned infrastructure even when running parallel.

 

[Tomnick]

The "shared" section of the Nottingham tram network is very much NET's infrastructure, both in terms of maintenance and operation. It's interlinked with Network Rail's signalling system at all three level crossings (in different ways) and NR's signaller operates Bulwell Forest crossing for each tram movement (and presumably gives, effectively, a slot to the tram's system – pretty sure there's also auto-lower to ease the workload). Lincoln Street is probably the most complex example – although the barriers don't need to be lowered for tram movements, they won't raise behind a train if there's a tram approaching, and they're also interlinked with the road traffic signals that protect the road junction on one side and the tram crossing on the other.

 

[M60lad]

Regarding Altrincham-Navigation Road in Manchester on Metrolink system this is quite a headache for Metrolink as in an ideal world the whole system would be run on line of sight but because the Altrincham-Navigation Road section is under Network Rail infrastructure this isn't possible at the moment although I believe Metrolink are trying to work something out so that it can be but nothing has been sorted as of yet.

Also because of how often the trams run through both Deansgate and Navigation Road crossings they have in the past been prone to failure with trams ending up terminating at Timperley and using the Timperley turnback which is just under Metrolink control as the boundary is just after the turnback siding.

 

[daodao]

Regarding Altrincham-Navigation Road in Manchester on Metrolink system this is quite a headache for Metrolink as in an ideal world the whole system would be run on line of sight but because the Altrincham-Navigation Road section is under Network Rail infrastructure this isn't possible at the moment although I believe Metrolink are trying to work something out so that it can be but nothing has been sorted as of yet.

Also because of how often the trams run through both Deansgate and Navigation Road crossings they have in the past been prone to failure with trams ending up terminating at Timperley and using the Timperley turnback which is just under Metrolink control as the boundary is just after the turnback siding.

I also understand that not all Metrolink trams are permitted to operate south of Timperley, as they need to be fitted with additional equipment to do so. AIUI, only numbers 3001-3060 of the current trams (the oldest ones) are enabled to operate to Altrincham.

@507 001 should be able to confirm.

 

[M60lad]

Ahh yes your right yeah its only the early batch of trams that can do Altrincham's

 

[507 001]

Regarding Altrincham-Navigation Road in Manchester on Metrolink system this is quite a headache for Metrolink as in an ideal world the whole system would be run on line of sight but because the Altrincham-Navigation Road section is under Network Rail infrastructure this isn't possible at the moment although I believe Metrolink are trying to work something out so that it can be but nothing has been sorted as of yet.

Also because of how often the trams run through both Deansgate and Navigation Road crossings they have in the past been prone to failure with trams ending up terminating at Timperley and using the Timperley turnback which is just under Metrolink control as the boundary is just after the turnback siding.

This isn’t necessarily the case.

I also understand that not all Metrolink trams are permitted to operate south of Timperley, as they need to be fitted with additional equipment to do so. AIUI, only numbers 3001-3060 of the current trams (the oldest ones) are enabled to operate to Altrincham.

@507 001 should be able to confirm.

It was originally 3001-3060 correct, 3061 covered for 3013 for a short period whilst that was being repaired from RTC damage.

Nowadays not all of the 3001-3060 range is ATS fitted, quite a few ‘retrofits’ (which use equipment recovered from T68s) have now had their ATS isolated as it is quite problematic kit.

I’m not sure which numbers these are.

 

[Ian Hardy]

This isn’t necessarily the case.



It was originally 3001-3060 correct, 3061 covered for 3013 for a short period whilst that was being repaired from RTC damage.

Nowadays not all of the 3001-3060 range is ATS fitted, quite a few ‘retrofits’ (which use equipment recovered from T68s) have now had their ATS isolated as it is quite problematic kit.

I’m not sure which numbers these are.

In April I travelled on 3131 and saw this notice in the cab: "This unit is not ATS fitted and must not travel between Timperley and Altrincham"

 

[vic-rijrode]

Alas sadly long gone, but I drive over a former rail/tram level crossing in Sunderland virtually every day. It was the intersection of the rail branch to North Dock (now the Marina!) from the line between Sunderland & Newcastle and the tram lines along the Fulwell Road heading from the town to Seaburn via Dykelands Road.

The actual site of the crossing is noticeable by a dip in the road (to accomodate the rail level) which would be otherwise unecessary.

 

[tumbledown]

To find out what ATS is I read this interesting old article on Metrolink:

Signalling Metrolink - Rail Engineer

Listen to this article Taking a brief step back in time, on the morning of 17 July 1992, with camera in hand, I jostled for a good viewing position with the crowds gathering in St Peter’s Square. It was a very special day for Manchester. Her Majesty the Queen was officially opening the...

www.railengineer.co.uk

 

[507 001]

In April I travelled on 3131 and saw this notice in the cab: "This unit is not ATS fitted and must not travel between Timperley and Altrincham"

Yes, anything not fitted has this notice in the cab.

In reality, they generally aren’t allowed to operate between Old Trafford and Timperley either, the idea being that if there’s an issue with Timperley siding such as a points failure there are no other options and the entire line is a bit… goosed.