'SG' - Regulation Question

[ComUtoR]

Evening and Seasons Greetings,

Just a quickie to the 'Fish watchers, Ivory Tower residents, Lever pullers, and general slipper wearing sofa sitters'... ♥♥ (you know I love ya) ♥♥

If you had two trains sitting at terminal, both late and service affecting. However, one had a TRTS and the other didn't. What would your actions be ? I've spoken about this before and some will regulate and pull the road without a TRTS and some will wait. Would you call the platform/control point to find out why or just wait for the TRTS ? I've also heard that you folks are more and more restricted in your actions. How bad is it or can you still make the hard calls ?

@Llanigraham is there a difference with a local box compared to a ROC ?
@Tomnick I'm interested in your experiences after your conversion to the light side of the force



*TRTS - Train Ready To Start (often a plunger on the station to send a signal that shows a service is 'ready'
*SG - GSMR button to send a message to the controlling Signaller
*GSMR - Global System for Mobile Communications-Railway (technically GSM-R)
*ROC - Rail Operations Center


Cheers in advance

 

[SamYeager]

Bog standard punter here. On the basis of the information provided I make the following assumptions:

• Each service requires a TRTS before it can depart.
• There is no instruction giving one service priority over the other.
• Neither road has a greater impact on operations than the other.

Consequently the road for the service with a TRTS should be pulled assuming no conflicting movements.

I now await the posts explaining why my "common sense" decision is completely and utterly wrong.

 

[skyhigh]

Each service requires a TRTS before it can depart.

Not necessarily.

 

[CyrusWuff]

On my patch it's strictly booked order unless requested otherwise by Control.

 

[endofthetunnel]

A very ‘it depends’ question really.

You’ve said it’s a terminal, so something is possibly going on on the network if there’s 2 late departures awaiting the road. In which case there will be considerations for the stopping patterns and routes of the two trains, back workings of them both and their crews, and what the issue that made them late was. Control will assist with those choices, as well as the existing regulating policies, and what else is waiting for the platforms.

If possible there’ll also be communication with the station about the potential readiness of the 2 trains - e.g. will it be moments or hours for the nonTRTS train to be ready? - so is it worth waiting. And it might be that both the late trains get held for an on time one anyway.

Many questions are asked on this forum about specific decisions and policies but in reality unless you’ve got the full picture at the exact time of the decision, you’ll never know. As a signaller often what looks like a terrible decision to us may be what’s required by control further down the line, for crewing etc. The right decision one hour can be the wrong one the next, and a great move one day will just not work the next - that’s what makes our job interesting!

 

[357]

Neither road has a greater impact on operations than the other.

If you look at Southend Central as an example, I've known two services in both bay platforms waiting for departure, both late. If there is a suitable gap, the one that has to cross over the down main will get priority as if left could cause more delays with the conflicting move over the 15mph crossovers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Dec 2023 ==

However, one had a TRTS and the other didn't.

On my old patch, nothing left without TRTS. The one time I forgot, I called the signaller and he pulled off manually but only because I'd called him.

On my new patch, ECS trains don't need TRTS so the situation would be looked at on face value. Some signallers will send the ECS first knowing we don't stop anywhere, others will regulate by the book, and others will follow the scheduled order.

 

[bluegoblin7]

Evening and Seasons Greetings,

Just a quickie to the 'Fish watchers, Ivory Tower residents, Lever pullers, and general slipper wearing sofa sitters'... ♥♥ (you know I love ya) ♥♥

If you had two trains sitting at terminal, both late and service affecting. However, one had a TRTS and the other didn't. What would your actions be ? I've spoken about this before and some will regulate and pull the road without a TRTS and some will wait. Would you call the platform/control point to find out why or just wait for the TRTS ? I've also heard that you folks are more and more restricted in your actions. How bad is it or can you still make the hard calls ?

@Llanigraham is there a difference with a local box compared to a ROC ?
@Tomnick I'm interested in your experiences after your conversion to the light side of the force



*TRTS - Train Ready To Start (often a plunger on the station to send a signal that shows a service is 'ready'
*SG - GSMR button to send a message to the controlling Signaller
*GSMR - Global System for Mobile Communications-Railway (technically GSM-R)
*ROC - Rail Operations Center


Cheers in advance

Recognising LUL practice is often different to the mainline, in our case we can still make those hard decisions and judgement calls, depending on prevailing conditions and 'best interests' of the service. There's no hard and fast rule but it can be anything from:
-Hold all signals and await a train logging on (First come, first served)
-Work strictly to booked order, clearing for whichever train should be next
-Working to the order of arrival - in this case generally giving the train the agreed minimum turn around time of four minutes, and then clearing anyway

We don't have the luxury of TRTS, but do have easy oversight of whether a train is logged in or not via Connect radio, or Mk1 eyeball in some locations with traditional cabins. There isn't much of a difference in operation between the cabins and the modern SCCs, including the ATO lines.

-SCC - Signalling Control Centre or Service Control Centre (both are used)
-ATO - Automatic Train Operation

 

[Llanigraham]

Unable to answer, as the only station I dealt with was Ludlow and none of this applied.

 

[Horizon22]

It seems to me it completely depends on the level of service disruption. Lots of different factors to consider, even down to the individual signaller. Shouldn’t be, but that’s how it seems to be!

There’s the risk the other late train may not be TRTS’d if the crew is not ready. Then there’s other factors such as it is a stopper, can the other train be routed around down the line etc.

I think calling the local controller or a control isn’t too helpful because it won’t necessarily be more insightful, because it will just be TRTS’d when it’s ready and there might not be a clear time on when that is.

 

[Signal_Box]

We have a set regulation policy in place for this kind of situation.

“If 1X00 is 10 minutes late at X point, you may allow 2X00 to depart ahead”

The issue comes when 1X00 is 9 minutes late at X point, I look at the forward stopping pattern and traction to determine my call. Unfortunately I also take into consideration whether our problem toc has caused me problems that day, as this particular conflict effects two different TOCs.

 

[Tomnick]

Evening and Seasons Greetings,

Just a quickie to the 'Fish watchers, Ivory Tower residents, Lever pullers, and general slipper wearing sofa sitters'... ♥♥ (you know I love ya) ♥♥

If you had two trains sitting at terminal, both late and service affecting. However, one had a TRTS and the other didn't. What would your actions be ? I've spoken about this before and some will regulate and pull the road without a TRTS and some will wait. Would you call the platform/control point to find out why or just wait for the TRTS ? I've also heard that you folks are more and more restricted in your actions. How bad is it or can you still make the hard calls ?

@Llanigraham is there a difference with a local box compared to a ROC ?
@Tomnick I'm interested in your experiences after your conversion to the light side of the force



*TRTS - Train Ready To Start (often a plunger on the station to send a signal that shows a service is 'ready'
*SG - GSMR button to send a message to the controlling Signaller
*GSMR - Global System for Mobile Communications-Railway (technically GSM-R)
*ROC - Rail Operations Center


Cheers in advance

There's rather more to this, from both sides!

Had an interesting one today that's perhaps a good example. Two late trains, albeit at a through station not a terminal. We'd just arrived but needed to change ends, and no dispatcher present anyway so no TRTS. On the other platform, a slightly less late train that was booked to follow us, ready to go and waiting for the road. Pretty much your scenario? It quickly became clear that the signaller was waiting for us to be belled out before giving us the road, even though the other one was ready. I was glad, because we had fewer stops than the other one!

A bit earlier, though. We were to be ten minutes late leaving a terminus, because of a late PNB. That put us one minute in front of the stopper that was to follow us. The signaller pulled off for us before TRTS. As it was, we struggled to get away on time because of overcrowding. Clearly the decision had already been made though, and it would only have been if we'd been significantly delayed (and had to get the signal taken back) that it would've been changed.

Both examples involve trains going along the same route though, with different stopping patterns. A decision with rather longer-term consequences than, say, two late trains waiting to go where they'd only briefly cross each other's path before heading in different directions. In that case, "first come first served" would probably make more sense. No point waiting for the one that should go first if it isn't ready, and thus a margin is available to quickly nip the second one across in front of it. It's quite common, at our place, if you're not ready to go on time for whatever reason (usually coupling issues!), then by the time you are belled out, you find that the signaller's taken the opportunity to have one across the throat in front of you first. An entirely sensible approach, looking at the bigger picture rather than the extra minute or two that it costs me!

 

[BrummieBobby]

Evening and Seasons Greetings,

Just a quickie to the 'Fish watchers, Ivory Tower residents, Lever pullers, and general slipper wearing sofa sitters'... ♥♥ (you know I love ya) ♥♥

If you had two trains sitting at terminal, both late and service affecting. However, one had a TRTS and the other didn't. What would your actions be ? I've spoken about this before and some will regulate and pull the road without a TRTS and some will wait. Would you call the platform/control point to find out why or just wait for the TRTS ? I've also heard that you folks are more and more restricted in your actions. How bad is it or can you still make the hard calls ?

@Llanigraham is there a difference with a local box compared to a ROC ?
@Tomnick I'm interested in your experiences after your conversion to the light side of the force



*TRTS - Train Ready To Start (often a plunger on the station to send a signal that shows a service is 'ready'
*SG - GSMR button to send a message to the controlling Signaller
*GSMR - Global System for Mobile Communications-Railway (technically GSM-R)
*ROC - Rail Operations Center


Cheers in advance

I have had this before at a 4 line, non-TRTS station that I control.

A late semi fast train sat in the Up Slow Platform; an on time stopping service sat in the Up Fast platform; the two trains take diverging routes in around 15 minutes time.

Offer both trains a single yellow at the station down to the junction; the first one to move gets the route over the junction.

 

[ComUtoR]

Morning all and thanks for the replies.

Regulation is very complex and its interesting to hear from you folks about what you have to deal with and sometimes the reasons why you do it. I think I'm at that point where I generally don't mind and have got over most of my frustrations when the road gets pulled for someone else or I get to the junction first and still get held.

In general.. are Regulation policies (booked order, timing out services if late etc.) better ? If those were passed down the line to the platform then they would know instinctively what's about to happen during disruption. Are they too restrictive ? Or is the everyday chaos and working on the fly better because you know your panels and can regulate more effectively to recover the service ?

Cheers all.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Dec 2023 ==

There's rather more to this, from both sides!

Had an interesting one today that's perhaps a good example. Two late trains, albeit at a through station not a terminal. We'd just arrived but needed to change ends, and no dispatcher present anyway so no TRTS. On the other platform, a slightly less late train that was booked to follow us, ready to go and waiting for the road. Pretty much your scenario?

In a nutshell yes. It can be frustrating for both crew and passengers that your sitting there on time, Signaller saying nothing, and WAIT on the GSMR.

We have Fast Vs Slows and stations where passengers will try to race over the footbridge or get stuck between platforms. Its always amusing when I get the road but the fast zooms past a few minutes later anyway.

 

[MarkyT]

Another consideration is that where ARS is provided, TRTS is often the sole trigger for the robot to set the forward route. Clearly the signaller could still set the route manually if necessary. I recall in sidings at Dartford for the last renewal scheme, NR installed an LUL-designed push-button device for this where the switch was mounted on a flexible sprung rubber 'stalk' crew could grab and operate from the cab window. They were routinely referred to as "elephant's todgers" by project staff and contractors, possibly not their official nomenclature! Shortly before LULs East London line closed down for modernision, I visited the old New Cross depot to inspect some LUL 'todgers' in service in the wild. LUL were very helpful and were able to supply the items we needed from their large stock of spares as they didn't have anyone building new ones at the time. We made some minor changes to the associated indicator lighting of each unit for the new application and were good to go.

 

[Signal_Box]

Morning all and thanks for the replies.

Regulation is very complex and its interesting to hear from you folks about what you have to deal with and sometimes the reasons why you do it. I think I'm at that point where I generally don't mind and have got over most of my frustrations when the road gets pulled for someone else or I get to the junction first and still get held.

In general.. are Regulation policies (booked order, timing out services if late etc.) better ? If those were passed down the line to the platform then they would know instinctively what's about to happen during disruption. Are they too restrictive ? Or is the everyday chaos and working on the fly better because you know your panels and can regulate more effectively to recover the service ?

Cheers all.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Dec 2023 ==



In a nutshell yes. It can be frustrating for both crew and passengers that your sitting there on time, Signaller saying nothing, and WAIT on the GSMR.

We have Fast Vs Slows and stations where passengers will try to race over the footbridge or get stuck between platforms. Its always amusing when I get the road but the fast zooms past a few minutes later anyway.

I’ve raised this several times with management about the blanket “wait” response option on GSMR. Apprently the firm has looked into allowing us to use text messages but it wasn’t followed up due to historic abuse somewhere.

 

[357]

I’ve raised this several times with management about the blanket “wait” response option on GSMR. Apprently the firm has looked into allowing us to use text messages but it wasn’t followed up due to historic abuse somewhere.

I can understand that some of the people in our industry would abuse it, however it seems to be a cop out. There is nothing stopping them putting more pre-set messages on there. For example we could have reasons for the delay given, or even just a "Wait est. 3 min", "Wait est. 5 min", "Wait est. 10 min" etc would be more helpful.

 

[Horizon22]

A bit earlier, though. We were to be ten minutes late leaving a terminus, because of a late PNB. That put us one minute in front of the stopper that was to follow us. The signaller pulled off for us before TRTS. As it was, we struggled to get away on time because of overcrowding. Clearly the decision had already been made though, and it would only have been if we'd been significantly delayed (and had to get the signal taken back) that it would've been changed.

It is frustrating when that happens from an operator / controller perspective. The whole point of TRTS is Train Ready To Start; if signallers are pulling off roads before it is, then no wonder things get delayed around it!

 

[357]

It is frustrating when that happens from an operator / controller perspective. The whole point of TRTS is Train Ready To Start; if signallers are pulling off roads before it is, then no wonder things get delayed around it!

We need TRTS buttons actually close to the cab then. On LTS they are all positioned around where guards would have been, eg at Southend Central they are next to the buffer stops. They can be pushed 40 or more minutes before departure!

 

[Horizon22]

We need TRTS buttons actually close to the cab then. On LTS they are all positioned around where guards would have been, eg at Southend Central they are next to the buffer stops. They can be pushed 40 or more minutes before departure!

Everywhere I've seen on station platforms is TRTS 2 mins before departure time (or if running late as soon as available). Where it's self TRTS by crew running late, then there will be inevitable delays. Anything pushed much earlier out of sidings/depots will generally be regulated accordingly unless its really early and its ECS all the way through.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Everywhere I've seen on station platforms is TRTS 2 mins before departure time (or if running late as soon as available). Where it's self TRTS by crew running late, then there will be inevitable delays. Anything pushed much earlier out of sidings/depots will generally be regulated accordingly unless its really early and its ECS all the way through.

The danger of running an ECS early is if there's a driver change somewhere, and the driver's not there because the train is running early. And sometimes the relieving driver is on a train behind the one they relieve!

 

[ComUtoR]

And sometimes the relieving driver is on a train behind the one they relieve!

Sitting outside a station...

SG..
Sig : Apologies Drive, the one in front is waiting for relief.
Me : That'd be me
Sig : Better get you in the platform then, await a change Drive.
Me : I'll be as quick as I can, feel free to pull the road two minutes after I get in. I'll SG when I'm setup.

Not unique and sorta hilarious when it happens. It's very much a result of regulation' being about the service and not thinking about crew.

 

[357]

Everywhere I've seen on station platforms is TRTS 2 mins before departure time (or if running late as soon as available). Where it's self TRTS by crew running late, then there will be inevitable delays. Anything pushed much earlier out of sidings/depots will generally be regulated accordingly unless its really early and its ECS all the way through.

Do you want to tell my old toс that? I said that the practice defeats the objective of TRTS and got told I don't know what I'm talking about

 

[Horizon22]

Sitting outside a station...

SG..
Sig : Apologies Drive, the one in front is waiting for relief.
Me : That'd be me
Sig : Better get you in the platform then, await a change Drive.
Me : I'll be as quick as I can, feel free to pull the road two minutes after I get in. I'll SG when I'm setup.

Not unique and sorta hilarious when it happens. It's very much a result of regulation' being about the service and not thinking about crew.

Ah the worst situation is a bay platform where the relieving driver is meant to take the outbound service...

 

[LowLevel]

Sitting outside a station...

SG..
Sig : Apologies Drive, the one in front is waiting for relief.
Me : That'd be me
Sig : Better get you in the platform then, await a change Drive.
Me : I'll be as quick as I can, feel free to pull the road two minutes after I get in. I'll SG when I'm setup.

Not unique and sorta hilarious when it happens. It's very much a result of regulation' being about the service and not thinking about crew.

Not a thriving metropolis but that's happened to me more than once at Boston in sleepy Lincs working a late running eastbound train

You get held at Hubberts Bridge. Driver SGs and gets "Wait".

Tries to ring and gets a grumpy "I sent you Wait, you've got to wait for the on time up train off the single line".

"We're the driver and guard for it. It isn't going anywhere."

"bugger, you'll have to wait for the route to reset then"

Signalling by ARS and TRTS now plagues Peterborough where the new system is universally despised by all. The platform staff now basically have to bell out for every single train whereas before for things that are inevitably running straight through like Anglo Scottish or Norwich trains the PSB would just pull off straight through so there's more running on cautionary aspects and resulting defensive driving losing time.

I loathe the York ROC way of working with ARS with a passion.

 

[Tomnick]

Not a thriving metropolis but that's happened to me more than once at Boston in sleepy Lincs working a late running eastbound train

You get held at Hubberts Bridge. Driver SGs and gets "Wait".

Tries to ring and gets a grumpy "I sent you Wait, you've got to wait for the on time up train off the single line".

"We're the driver and guard for it. It isn't going anywhere."

"bugger, you'll have to wait for the route to reset then"

Signalling by ARS and TRTS now plagues Peterborough where the new system is universally despised by all. The platform staff now basically have to bell out for every single train whereas before for things that are inevitably running straight through like Anglo Scottish or Norwich trains the PSB would just pull off straight through so there's more running on cautionary aspects and resulting defensive driving losing time.

I loathe the York ROC way of working with ARS with a passion.

You beat me to it with the Hubberts Bridge one. I still laugh about that

I don't laugh about Peterborough though. It's truly awful. Two minutes late at Werrington Jn yesterday, then held outside for eight minutes whilst an early-arriving Down train in 4 went north right time (I should've gone across in front of it, and would've had plenty of time to do so), the following Down train being let (also early!) into my booked platform 5 anyway, and finally being signalled into 4 just in time to see Class 2 tail lights trundling towards Whittlesea.

 

[AF91]

Back in my dispatching days we were taught not to TRTS trains out of order. Normally we'd wait until the previous train had been given the road or was on the move. In disruption we'd keep with booked order unless told otherwise by the control team but would still only TRTS a service once it was confirmed to be the next one out. This was to prevent any funky decisions by ARS or to prevent any confusion for the signallers who already had lots to be thinking about during disruption.

 

[Signal_Box]

Sitting outside a station...

SG..
Sig : Apologies Drive, the one in front is waiting for relief.
Me : That'd be me
Sig : Better get you in the platform then, await a change Drive.
Me : I'll be as quick as I can, feel free to pull the road two minutes after I get in. I'll SG when I'm setup.

Not unique and sorta hilarious when it happens. It's very much a result of regulation' being about the service and not thinking about crew.

Happens a dozen times a day on our patch, another factor in why morale is rock bottom.

 

[LowLevel]

You beat me to it with the Hubberts Bridge one. I still laugh about that

I don't laugh about Peterborough though. It's truly awful. Two minutes late at Werrington Jn yesterday, then held outside for eight minutes whilst an early-arriving Down train in 4 went north right time (I should've gone across in front of it, and would've had plenty of time to do so), the following Down train being let (also early!) into my booked platform 5 anyway, and finally being signalled into 4 just in time to see Class 2 tail lights trundling towards Whittlesea.

Had the same thing on Friday. Got checked at Stoke Jn for no real reason having been 4 late off Grantham.

Get to Werrington Jn and am brought down to a dead stop because it pulled off for a liner running 7-10 minutes early to come off the Joint line which is booked an hour in the yard at Eastfield to boot. It doesn't get the road inside and promptly sits there on the UDS stopping us from moving forward.

Eventually someone noticed and pulls off for us to go round it on the up fast by which time we get to New England North 10 late.

Just in time to sit there as the down Edinburgh is routed into the platform and eventually pulled off for, but then we wait for the Leeds to be signalled into platform 5 before we finally get the road into platform 4 having watched the Ipswich disappear into the distance as booked for us to follow all the way to Ely.

Further delay then at Ely for various services as that connection to Ipswich is both popular and 2 hourly and to be fair to GA if you have passengers for Bury St Edmunds they'll usually hold it there for you to catch up, which they did.

2 minutes delay at Nottingham becomes 24 minutes at Norwich and if I'd been fussed about my PNB would probably have resulted in the back working being part cancelled at Nottingham too.

All put down as far as I know to overhead wire issues between Newcastle and Edinburgh.

I understand the modern issues with signaller workload with things like line blockages but there is literally no area I work that performs better with workstations and ARS than it did as an NX panel.

 

[The Puddock]

Sitting outside a station...

SG..
Sig : Apologies Drive, the one in front is waiting for relief.
Me : That'd be me
Sig : Better get you in the platform then, await a change Drive.
Me : I'll be as quick as I can, feel free to pull the road two minutes after I get in. I'll SG when I'm setup.

Not unique and sorta hilarious when it happens. It's very much a result of regulation' being about the service and not thinking about crew.

You’re right, it happens all too often up and down the network but I feel I should point out for the sake of balance that signallers don’t* have any access to systems showing planned or live traincrew diagrams. Unless someone from the TOC deigns to tell them - usually through the NR Train Running Controller - they have no way of checking whether the crew is booked relief and what they do next. Most will take a note of the common traps after they’ve happened once but that doesn’t help when crew workings are disrupted and no one bothers to tell the box.


*as always on the railway there may be some odd places I’m not aware of where the box can somehow see the crew wrokings but that is very much the exception

 

[ComUtoR]

Some of our Signallers know the working quite well. Kudos to them and some days they are pretty good at sorting out trains.

With integrated control centres it should be better. Generally, during disruption it works well as everyone is communicating. It's those everyday moments where train a goes here and train b goes there and then oops.