Severe disruption near Lancaster (27/07)

[dk1]

It’s often better to just leave the stranded passengers onboard the train if at all possible.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jul 2024 ==

They can however ensure effective communication.

Agreed but we don’t know the full facts behind the scenes.

 

[Bill57p9]

Agreed but we don’t know the full facts behind the scenes.

And that is precisely why any half respecting organisation would regard this as an incident, investigate (in the plain light of day) what went well, what didn’t and learn how they could improve in future.

What has been described in this thread doesn’t sound as though the management of such situations has been fully optimised. (I’m being polite)

 

[dk1]

And that is precisely why any half respecting organisation would regard this as an incident, investigate (in the plain light of day) what went well, what didn’t and learn how they could improve in future.

What has been described in this thread doesn’t sound as though the management of such situations has been fully optimised. (I’m being polite)

Maybe not but no doubt they’ll be a meeting of some description on Monday to discuss the pros and cons.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

And that is precisely why any half respecting organisation would regard this as an incident, investigate (in the plain light of day) what went well, what didn’t and learn how they could improve in future.

Indeed. Not as if this is the first time of recent that there's been unexpected major disruption on the WCML.

And to paraphrase something that a certain Benjamin Franklin supposedly once said...

(Text box says "If you fail to plan, you plan to fail.")

 

[MadCommuter]

It’s often better to just leave the stranded passengers onboard the train if at all possible.

In hindsight, a 'sit in' on the train might actually have got more of a response from Avanti. But rightfully, passengers disembarked thinking they would board a coach.

 

[yorkie]

And that is precisely why any half respecting organisation would regard this as an incident, investigate (in the plain light of day) what went well, what didn’t and learn how they could improve in future.

What has been described in this thread doesn’t sound as though the management of such situations has been fully optimised. (I’m being polite)

Agreed. I certainly don't trust Avanti to carry out an appropriate investigation and learn lessons from it, though.

Does anyone know if the matter is being investigated?

 

[AMD]

So I’m wondering if they kept taking line blocks to investigate/ fix the issue in the hope they could get the points fully working again.

There was the initial problem at which point services were held at platforms, it was fixed and services were released however the problem reoccurred, which resulted in a queue of trains sitting between Carnforth and Lancaster for an extended period of time.
Another issue was that there was no cover at NR Carnforth depot, so the nearest suitable staff had to come down from Carlisle, albeit the MOM (Mobile Operations Manager) did attend to have a look. There was a line block taken between half 8 and 9 which resolved the problem.

 

[D1537]

Maybe not but no doubt they’ll be a meeting of some description on Monday to discuss the pros and cons.

To which the first question should be "why didn't you hold 9M60 at Preston for five more minutes, given that it was already 160 late, and decant 1M18's passengers onto it?"

 

[Howardh]

Reading all this makes my heart sink. I would suggest that everyone abandoned should write, separately, not as a group, to (a) the new transport secretary (b) their local MP and (c) the minister of state for railways, and also the press - proper letters, not e-mails.

Avanti should lose their franchise over this, and presumably the government will take it over (is Branson interested) and, like the airlines, a customer charter written in which someone must be available and accountable 24/7 to get pax to their destination whether it's one stranded or 1000.

The days of passing the buck and abandoning passengers should end forthwith.

 

[yorkie]

Reading all this makes my heart sink. I would suggest that everyone abandoned should write, separately, not as a group, to (a) the new transport secretary (b) their local MP and (c) the minister of state for railways, and also the press - proper letters, not e-mails.

I agree that everyone affected should make a fuss about it, as something needs to be done.

Avanti should lose their franchise over this, and presumably the government will take it over (is Branson interested) and, like the airlines, a customer charter written in which someone must be available and accountable 24/7 to get pax to their destination whether it's one stranded or 1000.

This isn't going to happen; feel free to post a speculative thread if you want to discuss it further.

The days of passing the buck and abandoning passengers should end forthwith.

There will never be an end to the poor treatment of passengers, especially at late evenings.

It's endemic and not limited to Avanti. For example people were utterly confused at York station a couple of evenings ago; no staff appeared to be on duty to help. The security guard didn't know where replacement buses departed from and wasn't interested. I tried my best to help people but I suspect those who were mistreated will be considering alternative transport modes in future.

Investigations should take place, lessons should be learnt, reforms enacted and safeguards should be put in place. But I have absolutely zero confidence that anything will change.

 

[chawky]

Say if you find yourself in this situation- abandoned at a random station with no staff or buses, would the train operator compensate you if you decided to stay in a hotel, rather than get a 2am taxi?

 

[Howardh]

I agree that everyone affected should make a fuss about it, as something needs to be done.

This isn't going to happen; feel free to post a speculative thread if you want to discuss it further.

There will never be an end to the poor treatment of passengers, especially at late evenings.

It's endemic and not limited to Avanti. For example people were utterly confused at York station a couple of evenings ago; no staff appeared to be on duty to help. The security guard didn't know where replacement buses departed from and wasn't interested. I tried my best to help people but I suspect those who were mistreated will be considering alternative transport modes in future.

Investigations should take place, lessons should be learnt, reforms enacted and safeguards should be put in place. But I have absolutely zero confidence that anything will change.

You've contradicted yourself a little there, on the one hand you rightly say "something needs to be done" r/e fuss about what happened, yet "there will never be an end to the poor treatment of passengers". I don't think anyone should accept the latter, we pay and arm and two legs often for a rail ticket! We, as Brits, seem to shrug our shoulders rather than be pro-active in getting what we rightly deserve. Will these "investigations" and "learnings" lead to, well, nothing as usual??

One thing I noted about Northern is they "switch off" their "X" account half-way through the evenings, when trains are still running!! "Northern Assist" can be very quick and helpful - but only when they are online. Why not be online until the last train has safely arrived, if it's late at night that's when help is most needed!!

 

[Paul_10]

There was the initial problem at which point services were held at platforms, it was fixed and services were released however the problem reoccurred, which resulted in a queue of trains sitting between Carnforth and Lancaster for an extended period of time.
Another issue was that there was no cover at NR Carnforth depot, so the nearest suitable staff had to come down from Carlisle, albeit the MOM (Mobile Operations Manager) did attend to have a look. There was a line block taken between half 8 and 9 which resolved the problem.

Going by open train times and Real time trains, trains were still leaving Oxenholme and Penrith despite it being clear there was not significant movement through Lancaster(in both directions). As another poster responded to me said, one reason could be they were trying to get any passengers for London to make any connections before the line block came into effect but unfortunately congestion at Preston meant that didn't work out and the railway is left in a situation where people are stranded.

I have no doubt this policy would of been totally different if it was any other night.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

This isn't going to happen; feel free to post a speculative thread if you want to discuss it further.

I've started a thread here , although I think with not quite the same suggestion as you were discussing.

 

[londonmidland]

Speaking of leaving passengers abandoned, has there not been instances of late running services arriving into Avanti managed stations, which have had their gates locked for the night and station staff having gone home?

I remember seeing a video of passengers having to jump over the locked fence in order to leave the station. I think it was either Lancaster, Oxenholme or Penrith.

 

[Howardh]

Speaking of leaving passengers abandoned, has there not been instances of late running services arriving into Avanti managed stations, which have had their gates locked for the night and station staff having gone home?

I remember seeing a video of passengers having to jump over the locked fence in order to leave the station. I think it was either Lancaster, Oxenholme or Penrith.

More than certain it was Oxenholme! Would the "help point" be on the platform, and would it have been answered? I imagine all thsoe stranded this weekend may well have tried to use a "help point" and wonder if anyone managed to get it answered? I suspect not?

 

[wilbers]

Speaking of leaving passengers abandoned, has there not been instances of late running services arriving into Avanti managed stations, which have had their gates locked for the night and station staff having gone home?

I remember seeing a video of passengers having to jump over the locked fence in order to leave the station. I think it was either Lancaster, Oxenholme or Penrith.

Found the threads for that. Though note last night staff were still at Oxenholme, so no risk of that reocuring for anyone.

Oxenholme station last night (16/08/22)- passengers "locked in"

Just seen this on Twitter: https://twitter.com/di_gilmore/status/1559675571050872832 Not cool @AvantiWestCoast London train arrived at Oxenholme station over 100 minutes late. The only way out of the station was to climb the locked gates! You couldn’t make it up #utterdisgrace...

www.railforums.co.uk

Avanti explains oxenholme incident

Is the executive director's response valid that passangers should have reboarded the train for Pentrith for replacement transport or were the passangers justified for staying at Oxenholme? This was the main comments of the CE Natasha Grice The train manager said that the train would continue...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[GRALISTAIR]

They can however ensure effective communication.

Quite. In most situations in life, communication is key.

 

[Skiddaw]

Goodness, I'm glad we were visiting friends in the south last weekend rather than this one!

 

[Toby268]

Same points have failed again. Everything being held again coming south with TPE 1M88 stuck outside Lancaster.

Looks like it’s been resolved quickly as network rail staff were already on site and services are on the move.

 

[800001]

Say if you find yourself in this situation- abandoned at a random station with no staff or buses, would the train operator compensate you if you decided to stay in a hotel, rather than get a 2am taxi?

It would be a case of contacting there customer care after the Event,

Going by open train times and Real time trains, trains were still leaving Oxenholme and Penrith despite it being clear there was not significant movement through Lancaster(in both directions). As another poster responded to me said, one reason could be they were trying to get any passengers for London to make any connections before the line block came into effect but unfortunately congestion at Preston meant that didn't work out and the railway is left in a situation where people are stranded.

I have no doubt this policy would have been totally different if it was any other night.

as someone else had posted, they believed fault was fixed hence why service would run forward to area, however fault then reoccurred.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Looks as if the late-running 1538 Northern departure from Morecambe (for Leeds via Skipton) has been diverted between Bare Lane and Carnforth so as to avoid Lancaster. Guess that's not much else that can do that!

Realtime Trains | 1538 Morecambe to Leeds | 28/07/2024

Real-time train running information for 1538 departure from Morecambe to Leeds on 28/07/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[DMU180]

I also wanted to note that there were many elderly people some with mobility issues who were just left out on the street and not given the option to sit in the station as it was closed.

some of the young people who got on the first coach behaved appallingly too barging to do the door while said elderly people were left at the back. Everyone for themselves and no sign of respect.

Absolutely not trying to detract from your main point, Avanti have acted appallingly here and should fully be held to account and I trust you’ll be submitting a formal complaint in due course too.

I do, however, take issue with your generalisation of ‘young people’ behaving ‘appallingly’. I have seen ‘older people’ behaving pretty awfully too on plenty of occasions but I would never make the generalisation that it was all older people. Someone’s age isn’t relevant to whether they’re a good person or not.

We also have no idea of the needs of those young people, they could be just as vulnerable, if not more so, than the elderly people you mention.

I’m not trying to excuse or justify their behaviour but just sharing another point of view that for a young person with anxiety etc, being abandoned in an unknown city late at night may cause you to behave more desperately.

 

[Brooklands]

Absolutely not trying to detract from your main point, Avanti have acted appallingly here and should fully be held to account and I trust you’ll be submitting a formal complaint in due course too.

I do, however, take issue with your generalisation of ‘young people’ behaving ‘appallingly’. I have seen ‘older people’ behaving pretty awfully too on plenty of occasions but I would never make the generalisation that it was all older people. Someone’s age isn’t relevant to whether they’re a good person or not.

We also have no idea of the needs of those young people, they could be just as vulnerable, if not more so, than the elderly people you mention.

I’m not trying to excuse or justify their behaviour but just sharing another point of view that for a young person with anxiety etc, being abandoned in an unknown city late at night may cause you to behave more desperately.

One younger person did volunteer to get off the solitary coach to allow a more vulnerable person to board. You’re right,
age isn’t necessarily a factor but duty of care obviously is. If someone could have been bothered to have supervised the situation in the first place there wouldn’t have been any perceived problems..

 

[DMU180]

One younger person did volunteer to get off the solitary coach to allow a more vulnerable person to board. You’re right,
age isn’t necessarily a factor but duty of care obviously is. If someone could have been bothered to have supervised the situation in the first place there wouldn’t have been any perceived problems..

I completely agree, the entire situation would have been avoided had Avanti done the right thing and ensured there was some sort of organisation.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I suppose the f word funding will as ever be the issue. Preston-type hubs in the likes of Switzerland give the appearance of being more generously equipped in terms of capacity and more resilient in coping with odd occasions of pear-shapedness using tried and tested contingency strategies rather than every such occurrence being treated as a new experience in uncharted waters.

Correct. Preston should be able to cope much better.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Correct. Preston should be able to cope much better.

Preston are terrible at handling disruption in my experience.

 

[The exile]

Of course there is an on-call manager but they can’t be everywhere for every eventuality.

In which case there aren't enough on-call duty managers.

 

[dk1]

In which case there aren't enough on-call duty managers.

It is what it is. Can you ever have enough?

 

[etr221]

Found the threads for that. Though note last night staff were still at Oxenholme, so no risk of that reocuring for anyone.

Oxenholme station last night (16/08/22)- passengers "locked in"

Just seen this on Twitter: https://twitter.com/di_gilmore/status/1559675571050872832 Not cool @AvantiWestCoast London train arrived at Oxenholme station over 100 minutes late. The only way out of the station was to climb the locked gates! You couldn’t make it up #utterdisgrace...

www.railforums.co.uk

Avanti explains oxenholme incident

Is the executive director's response valid that passangers should have reboarded the train for Pentrith for replacement transport or were the passangers justified for staying at Oxenholme? This was the main comments of the CE Natasha Grice The train manager said that the train would continue...

www.railforums.co.uk

There was also an incident of passengers being 'locked in' at Blackburn - IIRC earlier that year.