Sevenoaks ticket office refused to sell ticket

[Jackboy29]

Hi, following in from my previous post

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=40663

I returned to Sevenoaks this morning but unfortunately still had a problem trying to buy tickets and this time was refused the sale. As I had excellent advice on here before I'm hoping somebody could tell me what I did wrong.

I went into Sevenoaks station this morning and asked if I could have a ticket to boundary zone 6 and a Z6 travelcard. The ticket clerk asked to see my season ticket and i said I don't *have one, I need a Z6 travelcard aswell. She said she couldn't sell me that, I needed a travelcard from Sevenoaks at £13.50. I argued for a bit but my train was coming so asked for a single to Orpington and a Z6 travelcard. Again she refused saying as I was travelling straight to London I needed a Sevenoaks travelcard and the ticket clerk next to her was now getting involved too saying I needed the Sevenoaks travelcard. I told them this had happened before and that I'd looked into and I was sure the ticket combination was ok but she said not. I explained that I had checked in the Conditions of carriage and it was ok and you don't need to actually get off at Orpington, you can travel straight through as long as it stops there but I was told I must get off the train at Orpington. The clerk next to her said your not getting off at Orpington are you in an accusatory way to which I replied I might and what had that got to do with anything anyway to which he took as vindication as to their suspicions about me and gave me a smug I've caught u out look. I said you don't need to get off and she said you do. I said look it up in COC and 5 mins of furious activity followed before a CoC could be printed off and checked. I directed her to section 19 paragraph a and b and she said "there, you need a season ticket!". It says zonal I said. A boundary zone extension and a travelcard are both zonal. I was told they're not. I asked where does it say you have to get off the train and she read it to me as if it proved her point the "train must call at the station where the tickets change over!" yes, just call but not get off. You def have to get off i was told and she would only sell me the sevenoaks travelcard. I gave up and said ok, I'll get a Sevenoaks travelcard as I had already missed my train and asked how to contact the manager as I would be complaining this time as she'd refused to sell me the tickets I asked for to which she said get in contact with SEtrains. How I said, email em she said. Where to though? South east trains! she said at which point I gave up and took a passenger comments form instead.*

All in all not a good experience and any advice where I went wrong will be greatly received.

Thanks*

 

[yorkie]

Complain to SouthEastern, they are wrong.

If no suitable action is taken by SET, go to Passenger Focus and ATOC.

They are in breach of the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement (TSA), compliance with this is a franchise commitment, and is not optional.

This matter has already gone to court and the customer won. I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice, but you may wish to threaten them with legal action if they do not comply...

"COMBINATION OF TICKETS – RETAIL COMPLIANCE AND UNDERSTANDING OF CONDITION 17 OF NATIONAL RAIL CONITIONS OF CARRIAGE (NRCoC)

Following a recent Court case there has been some confusion over the sale of more than one ticket for use on a train journey. This item is intended to clarify the position.
When a customer asks for the cheapest ticket you are not obliged to offer them a combination of tickets. However, if a customer specifically asks for a particular combination of tickets you must sell those tickets, as long as your office has the necessary fares manuals, ticket issuing system and/or reservation facilities to do so.
NRCoC 17b allows a passenger to use two or more tickets as long as they cover the entire journey and the train the passenger is travelling on calls at the station where they change from one ticket to another. There is no requirement for the passenger to change trains or momentarily step onto the platform."

I trust you obtained their names? If not, it should be quite easy for SET to identify them and ensure they are given appropriate advice and training.

 

[MikeWh]

The only possible problem is asking for a zone 6 travelcard. It's actually a zones 1-6 travelcard. Otherwise you did nothing wrong. I would suggest a firm assertive letter to SE Customer Relations asking for written assurances that training will be provided to the ticket office staff at Sevenoaks such that you don't have this problem again. You are perfectly entitled to ask for, and be sold, a ticket to Orpington and a zones 1-6 travelcard. The only train that you can't use that combination on is one which doesn't call at Orpington. I'm not even sure if any of these exist outside the rush hour now, but that is THE ONLY restriction.

Their address is:
South Eastern Customer Services,
PO Box 63428,
London,
SE1P 5FD

Telephone: 0845 000 2222

I would also copy your letter to London Travel Watch as that is a very serious breach of their responsibilities.

 

[Mojo]

Southeastern Trains are starting to get a very bad reputation for poor service, officious staff and failing to communicate with customers in an acceptable manner.

If your train did stop at Orpington then there is no reason why that combination of tickets is not allowed.

Contact Southeastern and remind them of their obligations to impartial retailing and compliance with the Conditions of Carriage. Also you may want to remind them of this court case which happened a while back: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=556518&postcount=5.

Request a full refund for the extra costs involved, and see if you can get any compensation for your time (I have had no trouble doing this in the past when mis-sold a ticket). I'd also ask what they are going to do to retrain their staff as this is obviously a recurring problem. When a story about LM staff refusing to sell tickets that were requested by a poster here was mentioned, all LM ticket offices had a staff briefing reminding them of their obligations a week later.

If you are not satisfied with the response, contact London Travelwatch who are quite hot on these matters.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If no suitable action is taken by SET, go to Passenger Focus and ATOC.

Sevenoaks is within the London Travelwatch area, so complaining to LTW would be better.

 

[moonrakerz]

If you are not satisfied with the response, .............

I know they have come in for a lot of Flak of late, but a letter to your MP will get a rapid response from SET - and not just a "factory produced" one !

I had problems with both TV Licensing and DVLA - just going round in circles, standard letters being sent in response to my queries. A letter from my MP's office solved both problems instantly.

You're paying (for) your MP - you might as well use him................

 

[MikeWh]

The only train that you can't use that combination on is one which doesn't call at Orpington. I'm not even sure if any of these exist outside the rush hour now, but that is THE ONLY restriction.

Just checked NRES for my curiosity and there are trains you can't use the combination on. However, all the ticket office should do is advise you that it is not valid on those trains. It should NOT stop them selling you the tickets.

The sequence is:

xx06, xx36: stopping service, overtaken after Orpington
xx14, xx44: Orpington, London Bridge, Waterloo East, Charing Cross
xx19, xx49: London Bridge, Waterloo East, Charing Cross
xx29, xx29: Orpington, London Bridge, Waterloo East, Charing Cross

So it's only the 19 and 49 you need to avoid.

 

[penaltyfines]

a ticket to boundary zone 6

I thought you could only buy tickets *from* a boundary zone out, not a ticket *to* a boundary zone?

 

[323235]

but the OP wanted a Seven Oaks - Boundary Zone 6 and a 1-6 Travelcard. So surely they could use a train which doesn't stop at Orpington with that combination.

 

[penaltyfines]

Was that a reply to my post?

 

[Jackboy29]

Hi thanks for the replies. To clarify:

First I asked for a Sevenoaks to boundary zone 6 Ticket plus a Z6 travel card as i could get any train as it doesn't have to stop at Orpington as both tickets are zonal. As said earlier most trains do stop but not all.

When this was refused I asked for a single to Orpington and a Z6 travelcard and I would hav to get the stopping service but again this was refused.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I thought you could only buy tickets *from* a boundary zone out, not a ticket *to* a boundary zone?

They have been introduced in recent years. Most of the former NSE stations now have them (Exeter doesn't)

 

[penaltyfines]

If it happens again just buy a ticket from the ticket machine up to (but no more) than the cost of the Sevenoaks - Boundary Zone 6 ticket, Sevenoaks to Denton Green @ £2.60 (CDR) would do fine, or a permit to travel if available.

If there's an RPI or TM on the train (or at your destination), explain the situation and they can excess you up (I expect) to Sevenoaks - BZ6, and sell you the travelcard. If not, that's not your problem!

If you have any issues, what you've done is right because there were no ticket issuing facilities available at the station to buy the ticket combination you wanted, as I'm sure you can know/can explain!

 

[swt_passenger]

I have always understood that a BZ extension can only be used in conjuction with a zonal season or travelcard that you already have. For that reason surely you are immediately at a disadvantage if trying to buy both together.

I also understood that a BZ fare could not be issued as an independent ticket - it was effectively a special sort of excess fare.

I've also just done some googling of this, and found a discussion from about 2008 which pointed out that the old NFMs had separate sections that gave different instructions for extending travelcard seasons and day travelcards.

Despite boundary zone extension discussions cropping up regularly here, noone has so far been able to quote the current instructions in the manual.

Is it possible someone who has access to the manual could do this and possibly put a stop to all the 'educated guesswork'?

 

[jopsuk]

there is the die of issue of why on earth a zone 1-6 travelcard plus a return to BZ6 is cheaper than the travelcard return ticket- surely the latter is essentially just one ticket that covers both parts of the former, and should be the same price?

 

[swt_passenger]

there is the die of issue of why on earth a zone 1-6 travelcard plus a return to BZ6 is cheaper than the travelcard return ticket- surely the latter is essentially just one ticket that covers both parts of the former, and should be the same price?

If only that was true. It seems to be totally random if you check a few typical outboundary travelcards and work it out. Most of SWT's seem to be based on the journey all the way to Waterloo + a travelcard with a small discount. They certainly aren't priced as origin to (eg) Surbiton + travelcard, that's for sure. Other TOCs will vary...

 

[John @ home]

Is it possible someone who has access to the manual could [quote the current instructions?]

Holders of any Day or longer period Travelcard may purchase single or return Excess Fares tickets for travel to a range of National Rail stations outside the London Fare Zones area. Tickets should be issued from the outermost Boundary Zone of the Travelcard held and must not be valid for travel after the date of expiry of the Travelcard held. Day Travelcard holders can only purchase a CDS, CDR, SDS or SDR Excess Fare.

Travelcard Excess Fares should only be issued in conjunction with a valid Travelcard for journeys to or from stations outside the zones covered by the ticket held. Passengers must keep Travelcards ready to present for inspection together with their excess fare ticket.

Excess fare tickets should be issued using the special ‘Boundary Zone’ locations, between the Boundary Zones and stations shown in your TIS or the Fares Finder. Passengers travelling to or from stations not shown in your TIS or the Fares Finder should be issued a point-to-point ticket for either

• The last station in the outermost zone covered by their Travelcard (travel will then be subject to the National Conditions of Carriage, Clause 17 (combination of tickets)), or
• London Terminals, the individual London station, or other named station as appropriate.

Excess Fare tickets must not be valid after the date of expiry of the Travelcard held. For example, holders of Day Travelcards can only purchase a CDS, CDR, SDS or SDR Excess Fare ticket valid for the same day as the Travelcard held.

Where possible excess fares, including those issued at a discount to the holders of valid Railcards, should be purchased before the journey starts, but they may also be obtained on the train or at the destination, subject to Penalty Fares Scheme regulations.

Care must be taken where more than one routeing exists for Excess Fares from Boundary Zones, and the correct ticket appropriate to the route and service required must be issued.

All Excess Fares tickets are subject to normal restrictions.

 

[swt_passenger]

Holders of any Day or longer period Travelcard may purchase single or return Excess Fares tickets for travel TO a range of National Rail stations outside the London Fare Zones area. Tickets should be issued FROM the outermost Boundary Zone of the Travelcard held and must not be valid for travel after the date of expiry of the Travelcard held. Day Travelcard holders can only purchase a CDS, CDR, SDS or SDR Excess Fare.

Travelcard Excess Fares should only be issued in conjunction with a valid Travelcard for journeys TO OR FROM stations outside the zones covered by the ticket held.

So does anyone think those bits I've highlighted are as clear as they could possibly be, because I reckon they contradict each other.

At least it seems to confirm that they are definitely 'excess fares' as I thought - so does that mean that they cannot be sold on their own?

 

[RJ]

I made a thread about this the other day. The only time you can't buy a ticket to a Boundary Zone is if you're trying to buy one from a station in a lower numbered zone. If you're travelling from a station in a higher numbered zone or outside of London then you can buy a ticket to any Boundary Zone.

Somebody holding a Redhill - Zones 4 - 6 Travelcard turning up at Victoria/London Bridge cannot buy a single to Boundary Zone 3. They would need a single to a Zone 4 station or a Z1 - 4 Travelcard if it's more appropriate. The reverse applies if they were wanting an extension into London.

Someone with a Zone 1 - 4 Travelcard travelling from Redhill or East Croydon can buy a single or return to Boundary Zone 4, contrary to the advice being peddled on here.

 

[Jackboy29]

Am I able to buy a ticket from Sevenoaks to zone 6 AND a Z1-6 travelcard at the same time? Or do I need to be in possession of a travelcard first? This is a nonsense anyway as presumably I could buy a Z1-6 travelcard at the machine and then the boundary extension ticket from the clerk? Would a machine in Sevenoaks, which is outside zone 6 have the capability to sell me a Z1-6 travelcard? I don't think it can sell me the ticket from Sevenoaks to boundary zone 6 as I looked.

Or is all this academic as I should be sold what I've asked for? So if I ask for a specific combination should I be sold it regardless of whether the clerk thinks it's valid or not.

 

[MikeWh]

Am I able to buy a ticket from Sevenoaks to zone 6 AND a Z1-6 travelcard at the same time? Or do I need to be in possession of a travelcard first?

You should be able to ask for both at the same time, yes.

This is a nonsense anyway as presumably I could buy a Z1-6 travelcard at the machine and then the boundary extension ticket from the clerk? Would a machine in Sevenoaks, which is outside zone 6 have the capability to sell me a Z1-6 travelcard? I don't think it can sell me the ticket from Sevenoaks to boundary zone 6 as I looked.

As TVMs only sell tickets from the station where they are located I'd be surprised if you could buy a Z1-6 travelcard at Sevenoaks. You can't buy the boundary ticket because that requires the travelcard to be valid.

Or is all this academic as I should be sold what I've asked for? So if I ask for a specific combination should I be sold it regardless of whether the clerk thinks it's valid or not.

You should be sold what you've asked for, yes. If it's not valid I would expect the clerk to warn you, or at least ensure that you are aware why it isn't valid. But in the case of the options being discussed here, they are all valid.

 

[JKJimar53]

What is the correct procedure when the member of staff refuses to sell a ticket that exists, i have often had this trouble trying to buy boundary zone tickets to stations outside London.

 

[Jackboy29]

What is the correct procedure when the member of staff refuses to sell a ticket that exists, i have often had this trouble trying to buy boundary zone tickets to stations outside London.

That wa going to be my next question. Today I tried to reason with the ticket clerks (2 of them) and even showed them in the CoC that it didn't Back up what they were saying but they still wouldn't have it and wouldn't issue the ticket.

However if I tried to explain at my destination that Sevenoaks had refused to issue a ticket this would not be believed.

 

[asylumxl]

That wa going to be my next question. Today I tried to reason with the ticket clerks (2 of them) and even showed them in the CoC that it didn't Back up what they were saying but they still wouldn't have it and wouldn't issue the ticket.

However if I tried to explain at my destination that Sevenoaks had refused to issue a ticket this would not be believed.

Whenever I've had this issue, I've always just moved to the next station. In terms of FCC, neither BFR or CTK have ever given me issues, but my experience with STP and EPH has varied.

 

[sheff1]

What is the correct procedure when the member of staff refuses to sell a ticket that exists, i have often had this trouble trying to buy boundary zone tickets to stations outside London.

When a clerk at St Pancras refused to issue a Boundary Zone 6 to Luton ticket, I asked to see a supervisor and it was sorted. The problem is that smaller stations would not have a supervisor on site.

 

[JKJimar53]

When a clerk at St Pancras refused to issue a Boundary Zone 6 to Luton ticket, I asked to see a supervisor and it was sorted. The problem is that smaller stations would not have a supervisor on site.

Exactly, so what do you do when you cant buy a ticket that exists and there is no other member of staff with the correct knowledge. Can you get on the train and explain that the member of staff refused the sale.

 

[Mojo]

Not totally sure, but I'd probably argue that section 3 of the Conditions of Carriage comes into play:

3. Where the full range of tickets is not available
If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because the range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start your journey is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel that entitles you to make at least part of the journey. Then you must, as soon as is reasonably practicable, buy an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these circumstances, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey. The price you will have to pay will be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or Permit to Travel.

 

[yorkie]

Exactly, so what do you do when you cant buy a ticket that exists and there is no other member of staff with the correct knowledge. Can you get on the train and explain that the member of staff refused the sale.

See Mojo's reply above and also see this topic.

 

[island]

Does a ticket from somewhere to Boundary Zone 6 count as a zonal ticket?

 

[yorkie]

Yes, Boundary Zone 6 is a zonal location.

Another example would be a GMPTE Wayfarer and a Derbyshire Wayfarer, which actually overlap, but without the zonal rule wouldn't be valid on non-stop trains Stockport to Dore/Sheffield.

 

[Jackboy29]

But in my case there was no limitation in the system and the ticket could physically have been issued if the clerk would do it, except they refused.