Settle & Carlisle for WCML freight

[Philip]

Do you think some or all of the remaining freight traffic using the WCML towards Scotland should be diverted to use the Settle & Carlisle route instead?

It would potentially free up one or more paths for extra passenger services, as well as improving reliability on the WCML; with only double track and limited loops, if a freight breaks down on this section it can stop everything else and cause huge disruption, so rerouting the freight trains would at least help with this. Finally, it would reduce track wear on the WCML in not having as many very heavy trains going over and thus possibly not as much maintenance and possessions needed. Yes this would mean transferring the problem onto S&C, but this line is well underused as it is, so extra freight paths and more track maintenance isn't going to have a detrimental impact.

In terms of the route, freight from the south towards the NW & Scotland could either branch off at Farrington Junction towards Clitheroe and Hellifield, or run to Stockport and then via Denton to reach Manchester Victoria and thus towards Hellifield via Darwen.

 

[The Planner]

Do you think some or all of the remaining freight traffic using the WCML towards Scotland should be diverted to use the Settle & Carlisle route instead?

It would potentially free up one or more paths for extra passenger services, as well as improving reliability on the WCML; with only double track and limited loops, if a freight breaks down on this section it can stop everything else and cause huge disruption, so rerouting the freight trains would at least help with this. Finally, it would reduce track wear on the WCML in not having as many very heavy trains going over and thus possibly not as much maintenance and possessions needed. Yes this would mean transferring the problem onto S&C, but this line is well underused as it is, so extra freight paths and more track maintenance isn't going to have a detrimental impact.

In terms of the route, freight from the south towards the NW & Scotland could either branch off at Farrington Junction towards Clitheroe and Hellifield, or run to Stockport and then via Denton to reach Manchester Victoria and thus towards Hellifield via Darwen.

Its not gauge cleared in any way for Intermodal traffic. The costs of doing that would be huge as you will end up needing to sort the tunnels. You are also assuming that the time penalty is absorbable. Getting electric freight along the WCML should be a greater priority.

 

[Neptune]

Apart from the gauge issues (into the billions to sort that out including long closures of the S&C to do it) there’s the capacity issues it would cause getting onto/off the WCML at the reduced speeds this requires twice per journey plus the huge time penalty in diverting a seriously long way around at a seriously reduced speed. All in all it sounds like a plan hatched by the road hauliers wanting to win loads of work from the railway.

 

[randyrippley]

Is the actual amount of work needed to fix the gauge problems known? Or is a discovery process needed to quantify it?
What's the tunnel problem - height? or width? or?

 

[The Planner]

Is the actual amount of work needed to fix the gauge problems known? Or is a discovery process needed to quantify it?
What's the tunnel problem - height? or width? or?

Its the lowest gauge possible along there. W6A.

 

[randyrippley]

Its the lowest gauge possible along there. W6A.

OK, this is possibly going to be a thick question, but I'll ask anyway.....

does that mean it's been strictly built to W6A?
or that it's been checked to comply with W6A as a lowest common denominator, but other areas could be more relaxed?

 

[The Planner]

OK, this is possibly going to be a thick question, but I'll ask anyway.....

does that mean it's been strictly built to W6A?
or that it's been checked to comply with W6A as a lowest common denominator, but other areas could be more relaxed?

No idea, but the fact that looping options for the route north of Preston are always the items looked at suggests the Settle and Carlisle is on the too difficult pile.

 

[zwk500]

OK, this is possibly going to be a thick question, but I'll ask anyway.....

does that mean it's been strictly built to W6A?
or that it's been checked to comply with W6A as a lowest common denominator, but other areas could be more relaxed?

It means that the smallest bridge is W6a compliant but not any bigger. The line will have been built to the Midland Railway's standards which predate W6A definition. However the fact it hasn't been cleared for W7 demonstrates that there is at least one obstacle that prevents clearance for that loading gauge.
Some bridges will be clear for bigger gauges, but others may not be. The biggest potential problems will be the tunnels, as the only practical method to achieve gauge enhancement is to lower the track, but that requires major works to the tunnel invert and drainage.

 

[Bald Rick]

Finally, it would reduce track wear on the WCML in not having as many very heavy trains going over and thus possibly not as much maintenance and possessions needed. Yes this would mean transferring the problem onto S&C, but this line is well underused as it is, so extra freight paths and more track maintenance isn't going to have a detrimental impact.

Not so.

The S&C is lightly used, whereas the WCML is heavily used, and also has tight tolerances due to the high speed tilting trains that use it. Switching all WCML freight to the S&C would not reduce WCML maintenance costs much (the maintenance still required for the tight tolerances needed for the high speed tilting trains). However it would significantly increase the maintenance and renewal costs of the S&C, as tonnage would roughly quadruple.

When the coal traffic from Ayrshire started heading down to the Yorkshire power stations, well over £100m was spent on maintaining / renewing the S&C, and that was around 20 years ago.

 

[Philip]

Perhaps you could ask what the purpose of the S&C is at all nowadays, as explained in this thread there seems little chance of it becoming a major freight route. It doesn't seem to be used as a Virgin/Avanti diversionary route anymore and the regular passenger service has been limited to a handful of services per day for decades. Is the demand there for an hourly service? With the origin pssibly alternating between Leeds and Manchester? How big a tourist attraction is the line itself?

 

[InkyScrolls]

Perhaps you could ask what the purpose of the S&C is at all nowadays, as explained in this thread there seems little chance of it becoming a major freight route. It doesn't seem to be used as a Virgin/Avanti diversionary route anymore and the regular passenger service has been limited to a handful of services per day for decades. Is the demand there for an hourly service? With the origin pssibly alternating between Leeds and Manchester? How big a tourist attraction is the line itself?

The purpose is for carrying some freight and acting as a passenger line for those living along the route. There is neither need nor demand for an hourly service (though that's not to say, as someone living along it, that I wouldn't welcome such an uplift!). It's a big attraction in itself but not on a 'Disneyland' sort of scale. It'll never make a profit but it's worth keeping open nonetheless.

 

[The Planner]

Perhaps you could ask what the purpose of the S&C is at all nowadays, as explained in this thread there seems little chance of it becoming a major freight route. It doesn't seem to be used as a Virgin/Avanti diversionary route anymore and the regular passenger service has been limited to a handful of services per day for decades. Is the demand there for an hourly service? With the origin pssibly alternating between Leeds and Manchester? How big a tourist attraction is the line itself?

Avanti not using it is their choice. There have been recent studies looking at getting the line speed up.

 

[alf]

Avanti not using it is their choice. There have been recent studies looking at getting the line speed up.

Who asked for the studies to be done?
It would be interesting to see the studies.

60 mph top speed on a main line that carried steam expresses at 85mph seems designed to make the S & C a backwater & candidate for possible closure.

 

[The Planner]

Who asked for the studies to be done?
It would be interesting to see the studies.

60 mph top speed on a main line that carried steam expresses at 85mph seems designed to make the S & C a backwater & candidate for possible closure.

They are internal NR ones. Closure is a conspiracy theory.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Who asked for the studies to be done?
It would be interesting to see the studies.

60 mph top speed on a main line that carried steam expresses at 85mph seems designed to make the S & C a backwater & candidate for possible closure.

It's purely down to the level of maintenance required. There has to be a compelling case to raise linespeed as though the infrastructure is more than capable, for the most part, of 75 mph say, that doesn't mean there isn't significant engineering expenditure involved.

 

[HSTEd]

Even if the speed limit was 90mph or such it is still unlikely to be competitive with the WCML or ECML for fast passenger services to Scotland etc.

What reallly needs doing to the S&C is signalling modernisation, given the extreme staffing requirements of the line as it stands. But we've discussed that to death in the past.

 

[70014IronDuke]

... There have been recent studies looking at getting the line speed up.

For freight or passenger or both, can you say?

Even if the speed limit was 90mph or such it is still unlikely to be competitive with the WCML or ECML for fast passenger services to Scotland etc.

Certainly not WCML or ECML, but it would surely make Leeds/Bradford - Motherwell/Glasgow via the S&C, and assuming through trains, more attractive.

A lot would depend on the PSRs too, of course, but a 90 mph line speed over the S&C, combined with faster paths between Leeds and Skipton (if these could be timetabled) should mean you could do Leeds - Carlisle in 115-120 minutes and Motherwell/Glasgow in maybe 3 hr - 15 min.

I think that would be very competitive for Leeds/Bradford - Glasgow journeys. Whether the increased farebox would justify the cost is another matter altogether.

A line speed on the S&C of 75 mph is probably a more realistic hope, but if the vast majority of services remain all (or very nearly all) shacks, I wonder what time savings this would make - 10 - 12 mins perhaps, Skipton - Carlisle?

Hardly enough to make the route more attractive for Glasgow, and equally important, would the average Appleby - Carlisle or Horton - Leeds commuter notice the marginal improvement in the journey times?

I suspect a case for a line speed improvement would only work out if 3-4 daily semi-fast (Appleby, Kirkby Stephen, Settle) services with 95 (?) minute timings Skipton-Carlisle could be justified.

 

[brad465]

60 mph top speed on a main line that carried steam expresses at 85mph seems designed to make the S & C a backwater & candidate for possible closure.

Have I woken up in the 80s when this sort of discussion was going on?

If there was demand for traffic from Leeds and surrounding areas to go to Carlisle and Glasgow then upgrading the line maybe viable, but I imagine such traffic uses the ECML well enough anyway. Would it be any cheaper raising the line speed via adding a Sprinter/MU differential to the base 60mph value than raising the whole base value?

 

[30907]

A line speed on the S&C of 75 mph is probably a more realistic hope, but if the vast majority of services remain all (or very nearly all) shacks, I wonder what time savings this would make - 10 - 12 mins perhaps, Skipton - Carlisle?

Hardly enough to make the route more attractive for Glasgow, and equally important, would the average Appleby - Carlisle or Horton - Leeds commuter notice the marginal improvement in the journey times?

I think you underestimate the potential of a 75mph uplift - the stations (perhaps not Long Preston-Hellifield) are far enough apart for 158s to get up to and sustain 75 (they beat that easily in the Aire Valley, if they aren't checked by the preceding stopper). Yes, it would be even better for a semifast, but I doubt more that 1 extra return trip per day would be justified in terms of loadings.

 

[The Planner]

For freight or passenger or both, can you say?

Im not aware of it being a differential, but considering you can't send boxes that way its moot anyway.

 

[zwk500]

it would surely make Leeds/Bradford - Motherwell/Glasgow via the S&C, and assuming through trains, more attractive.

There would not be any through trains on a regular basis, because of the difficulties threading anything through/across Leeds throat and the issues that any unit suitable for the S&C will not be suitable for an express path on Carlisle-Carstairs.
An uplift to 75mph would probably be the feasible limit for maintenance costs, although what would really help the S&C is being able to get a centrally controlled signalling system that didn't need track-based train detection. However ETCS L3 is still a long way from being operationally deployed, let alone economic for a line such as the S&C.

 

[HSTEd]

There would not be any through trains on a regular basis, because of the difficulties threading anything through/across Leeds throat and the issues that any unit suitable for the S&C will not be suitable for an express path on Carlisle-Carstairs.
An uplift to 75mph would probably be the feasible limit for maintenance costs, although what would really help the S&C is being able to get a centrally controlled signalling system that didn't need track-based train detection. However ETCS L3 is still a long way from being operationally deployed, let alone economic for a line such as the S&C.

GIven the very low freight traffic densities you might be able to make a case for it being the testbed installation for an L2/3H system in the UK...;..

 

[70014IronDuke]

I think you underestimate the potential of a 75mph uplift - the stations (perhaps not Long Preston-Hellifield) are far enough apart for 158s to get up to and sustain 75 (they beat that easily in the Aire Valley, if they aren't checked by the preceding stopper). Yes, it would be even better for a semifast, but I doubt more that 1 extra return trip per day would be justified in terms of loadings.

I bow to your better knowledge of the 158's capabilities (absolutely no sarcasm intended).

What time saving do you think a line speed of 75 mph would result in then, Skipton - Carlisle, all shacks (maybe not Long Preston)? 20 mins? Possibly 22-23? Anywhere in that region would be an impressive reduction, I'd think. If we could get that journey down to 95 minutes, it would bring Leeds - Carlisle down to 2 hr 10. (Almost as good as steam-hauled expresses )

Im not aware of it being a differential, but considering you can't send boxes that way its moot anyway.

I meant were the studies being done primarily with the thought of making freight or passenger schedules more attractive?

There would not be any through trains on a regular basis, because of the difficulties threading anything through/across Leeds throat and the issues that any unit suitable for the S&C will not be suitable for an express path on Carlisle-Carstairs.

But arrivals from Skipton only block the entire throat of Leeds if continuing south, surely? I wasn't thinking of that on any regular basis.

An uplift to 75mph would probably be the feasible limit for maintenance costs, although what would really help the S&C is being able to get a centrally controlled signalling system that didn't need track-based train detection. However ETCS L3 is still a long way from being operationally deployed, let alone economic for a line such as the S&C.

I can accept you are completely right ... it's beyond my knowledge limitations.

 

[InkyScrolls]

What time saving do you think a line speed of 75 mph would result in then, Skipton - Carlisle, all shacks (maybe not Long Preston)? 20 mins? Possibly 22-23? Anywhere in that region would be an impressive reduction, I'd think. If we could get that journey down to 95 minutes, it would bring Leeds - Carlisle down to 2 hr 10. (Almost as good as steam-hauled expresses )

Not the ones to whom you were replying, but I can answer some of your questions. A 20 min saving Skipton to Carlisle is probably about right - uphill it would take the 158s quite some time to reach 75 mph.

But arrivals from Skipton only block the entire throat of Leeds if continuing south, surely? I wasn't thinking of that on any regular basis.

Indeed! However pathing between Skipton and Leeds is very tight; there are essentially two 'express' paths per hour (at xx00 and xx30, give or take a minute).

 

[Napier]

Do you think some or all of the remaining freight traffic using the WCML towards Scotland should be diverted to use the Settle & Carlisle route instead?

It would potentially free up one or more paths for extra passenger services, as well as improving reliability on the WCML; with only double track and limited loops, if a freight breaks down on this section it can stop everything else and cause huge disruption, so rerouting the freight trains would at least help with this. Finally, it would reduce track wear on the WCML in not having as many very heavy trains going over and thus possibly not as much maintenance and possessions needed. Yes this would mean transferring the problem onto S&C, but this line is well underused as it is, so extra freight paths and more track maintenance isn't going to have a detrimental impact.

In terms of the route, freight from the south towards the NW & Scotland could either branch off at Farrington Junction towards Clitheroe and Hellifield, or run to Stockport and then via Denton to reach Manchester Victoria and thus towards Hellifield via Darwen.

A rumour has been bandied about saying the Settle Carlisle is going back 24/7.

 

[zwk500]

A rumour has been bandied about saying the Settle Carlisle is going back 24/7.

Presumably this is Operating hours, not having trains through the night? Which boxes close fully overnight now? I thought one or two switched out but the line remained open overnight.

 

[The Planner]

A rumour has been bandied about saying the Settle Carlisle is going back 24/7.

That is because there was no formal agreement to cut the box hours. It delays a freight train in the morning.

 

[Napier]

Presumably this is Operating hours, not having trains through the night? Which boxes close fully overnight now? I thought one or two switched out but the line remained open overnight.

From what I gather they were put onto an 8 hour roster thats really abysmal.

 

[zwk500]

From what I gather they were put onto an 8 hour roster thats really abysmal.

Oh goodness, shows how long I've been out of the loop!

 

[Napier]

That is because there was no formal agreement to cut the box hours. It delays a freight train in the morning.

I had heard it was a local mangerial cost cutting exercise to put them on an 8 hr roster and knock the nightshift off.