Set-down/Pick-up only: Consequences of breaking the rules?

[kkong]

One thing I've wondered is if with the increase in e-tickets the railway may do some data fishing to find people who do this sort of thing a lot and send them settlement offers/invitations to incriminate themselves regardless of whether an actual case would stand up in Court, so anyone doing this often may prefer to use paper tickets purchased for cash.

Similarly people who often finish short on Advances etc.

This is another topic which was mentioned in the Feb 2023 ScotRail board meeting minutes:

2.6 Short hop ticketing: paper 23/02/03

Claire Dickie presented the paper.
A combination of analysis of digital ticket sales and feedback from frontline colleagues has highlighted a revenue protection risk.
Claire Dickie explained the presumed reasons for this and that the proposed plan will be run on a trial basis, tracking its development with further analysis.
The Board approved a three-month trial and requested that the results be presented back to the Board thereafter.

and

22.58 Revenue protection: ticket scanning
Data on trends will be produced at a later date and presented to the Board.
It was noted that currently scanning data is only available from November 2022 and enquires are being made regarding the acquisition of historic data.
The Board requested that this is obtained in sufficient detail to determine any inflection point and measure the initiative’s value.

 

[bakerstreet]

One thing I've wondered is if with the increase in e-tickets the railway may do some data fishing to find people who do this sort of thing a lot and send them settlement offers/invitations to incriminate themselves regardless of whether an actual case would stand up in Court, so anyone doing this often may prefer to use paper tickets purchased for cash.

Similarly people who often finish short on Advances etc.

Interesting question. I asked a similar question a while back about the risk to e-ticket users of after the event e-ticket database checking.

Will after-the-event e-ticket database checking be a risk to passengers?

You may have seen the following update on this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/surprise-debt-recovery-and-prosecution-letter.231255/ and the letter received by the OP and their comments here too. This is precisely the type of scenario I am concerned about and why I started this...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Krokodil]

I would be surprised if there wasn't a "this train doesn't stop at Reading" announcement since almost all of the trains do stop there - when I did a first stop Oxford train we had one of these announcements. Then again, I guess the commuters may think that this is just them trying to stop Reading people from boarding

There would have been such an announcement every evening on those trains. The Reading lot would have cottoned onto the fact that it actually did stop, until the day it didn't.

Even if the announcement has cried 'wolf' 19 times, that doesn't mean that there won't be a wolf on the 20th.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

I have a question, based on the now closed thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/avanti-west-coast-gave-me-a-£142-10-fine.226349/

What if someone had a ticket from Crewe to London Euston, broke their journey at Watford Junction and they then reboard the Avanti West Coast train at Watford Junction to complete their journey to London Euston? Does it risk a penalty fare or prosecution?

 

[Watershed]

I have a question, based on the now closed thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/avanti-west-coast-gave-me-a-£142-10-fine.226349/

What if someone had a ticket from Crewe to London Euston, broke their journey at Watford Junction and they then reboard the Avanti West Coast train at Watford Junction to complete their journey to London Euston? Does it risk a penalty fare or prosecution?

Penalty Fares don't apply on Avanti, though certain Train Managers would no doubt be keen on trying to charge a brand new Anytime Single from Crewe. But as previously described, the NRCoT don't allow for such a penalty. As mentioned above, there is a largely theoretical possiblity of prosecution under one of the obscure Byelaws (e.g. 10(2) or 13(1)), but I wouldn't be too concerned about that.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Penalty Fares don't apply on Avanti, though certain Train Managers would no doubt be keen on trying to charge a brand new Anytime Single from Crewe. But as previously described, the NRCoT don't allow for such a penalty. As mentioned above, there is a largely theoretical possiblity of prosecution under one of the obscure Byelaws (e.g. 10(2) or 13(1)), but I wouldn't be too concerned about that.

Why would a train manager want to charge a brand new anytime single from Crewe if a passenger already has a valid ticket from Crewe?

Also, if you don't mind me asking, what are Bylaws 10.2 and 13.1? I only know 17 and 18 (17 is compulsory ticket areas, 18 is the requirement for your ticket to be bought before boarding the train unless there's no ticket purchasing facilities at the departing station as well as the requirement to show your ticket to a ticket inspector when asked).

 

[Watershed]

Why would a train manager want to charge a brand new anytime single from Crewe if a passenger already has a valid ticket from Crewe?

Because it would earn them quite a bit of commission, and their limited training (and sometimes their desire to enforce the concept of "my train, my rules") may lead them to believe that the passenger doesn't hold a valid ticket.

Also, if you don't mind me asking, what are Bylaws 10.2 and 13.1? I only know 17 and 18 (17 is compulsory ticket areas, 18 is the requirement for your ticket to be bought before boarding the train unless there's no ticket purchasing facilities at the departing station as well as the requirement to show your ticket to a ticket inspector when asked).

The Railway Byelaws are available here. Byelaw 10.2:

No person shall be in or on any train except the parts of it intended for use by that person

(some might try to argue that a train is not "intended for use" by you if it's designated as setting down only)

Byelaw 13.1:

No person shall enter or remain on any part of the railway where there is a notice:

1. prohibiting access or
2. indicating that it is reserved or provided for a specified category of person only, except where he belongs to that specified category

(again, some might try to argue that a "set down only" indication would fulfil either requirement)

I'm not convinced that a contested prosecution would necessarily succeed on either basis, but I guess it's worth mentioning. It's not a fares offence though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Penalty Fares don't apply on Avanti, though certain Train Managers would no doubt be keen on trying to charge a brand new Anytime Single from Crewe. But as previously described, the NRCoT don't allow for such a penalty. As mentioned above, there is a largely theoretical possiblity of prosecution under one of the obscure Byelaws (e.g. 10(2) or 13(1)), but I wouldn't be too concerned about that.

More likely is that they'll see you doing it and either stop you or ask you to leave (possibly being met by BTP at Euston for a word). They watch like hawks.