Services where 1st Class should be there but isn't.

[Clansman]

Thanks for the explanation & photos! If Standard is getting plug sockets as part of the refurbishment then there's really no point paying extra for FC on that particular stock. Especially considering the seats are identical. If I remember correctly FC isn't separated from Standard by a door on the Scotrail 158s either so it wouldn't necessarily be any more tranquil in there.

No problem

I agree, there's really no point in having first class based on that specific interior when it bares near enough exact resemblance to standard in terms of space. It defeats the purpose.

The Inverness refurbishment program of 2008 was quite a strange one for the 158s in terms of it's first class. All Scotrail 158s had a first class section (no different to the current set up in terms of layout) which was separated by a glass swing door. I can't remember when they were removed but I'm guessing the declassifying of the Haymarket units was included in the Inverness refurbishment program. The gap where the door used to be is visible on all non refurbished Haymarket units (gap between 2 rows of seats), as is the curtain railing. It's a shame First or Abellio haven't taken up the option to include a better first class offering like other TOCs such as South West Trains.

 

[physics34]

you could say southern services with a 377 or gatwick services with a 387!!!! Its not exactly first class now is it.!?

Id upgrade it and charge a higher premium than now.

 

[AM9]

I know there would be a few people who would pay it should it be on the trains and offered a little bit extra.

Though im sure you mean HS1 not 2 which hasnt been built yet

Ooops, HS1 of course. The Javelin service is mostly used between STP and Ashford, some 40 minutes. The accomodation on the 395s is better than 1st class on many of London's outer suburban stock so would there really be much of a market unless the accomodation was greatly improved which would reduce the trains' total capacity?

 

[hexagon789]

None of the Far North Line services are booked to convey First Class accommodation and as the Inverness-Aberdeen line will be served mainly by HSTs and 170s when the HSTs arrive it is no longer necessary for the 158s to have First Class. Indeed it's been removed from most Haymarket based 158s and will be removed from the Inverness 158s in due course. The only services that really require the 158s to have First Class is Inverness-Aberdeen and I think that the reason ScotRail get away with using 158s with poor First Class accommodation is because it is more of a rural route than the other internal Scottish "InterCity" routes, the 170s are needed for the Inter City routes where they can actually operate at their 100 mph top speed and it's only a once every two hours approx., predominantly single track 70-75 mph line, i.e. not high in ScotRail's priorities regarding First Class provision. Mind you I saw a double non-First Class 158 working a Glasgow QS-Aberdeen service recently so that might be doubtful now!

 

[Clansman]

Mind you I saw a double non-First Class 158 working a Glasgow QS-Aberdeen service recently so that might be doubtful now!

The first class is used on all Intercity Routes on the 158s when a 170 isn't available - or at least on services where it's actually booked for like the odd Inverness 4 car from Edinburgh, which would no doubt give you sciatica and dead legs by the time you arrive in Inverness!

I agree that there is less of a need for the 158s to have a first class as the HSTs and 170s will fill that void in future, but given the routes the 158s will be working on in the future isn't there a case for upgraded travel accommodation? Baring in mind they are currently (and in future) working on routes which are predominantly around 4 hours+ and cater for both business and tourist markets it would be a wise move from Scotrail to maybe consider it. But never the less that'll never happen

 

[Kite159]

Mid Cheshire Line
Stoke - Manchester local stopping services

For all the fine people of East Cheshire ))

 

[6Gman]

Mid Cheshire Line
Stoke - Manchester local stopping services

For all the fine people of East Cheshire ))

Isn't Stourbridge Town a higher priority?

 

[Master29]

What about Cardiff to the south coast. Quite a journey for no first class. Although I wonder if that will be the case when the 165`s are introduced on this run.

 

[Bevan Price]

Unfortunatley

I've had better journeys on that route on the Sleeper Lounge Car sofa



Bugger knows lol. I was simply answering the OP question, rather than put forwarding a serious proposal - otherwise I'd start my own thread.

Never the less I'll attempt to answer on the spot.

Take a section of around 3 rows of seats nearest the vestibule/cab end. Add additional hand rails at the dividing point. Place a neatly folded fabric sheet over the top of each seat with "First Class" written on each. Voilà

Seems to work for most commuter TOCs out there

Except for the standard class passengers, more of whom have to stand in too short Class 170s on XC, etc.

 

[All Line Rover]

Except for the standard class passengers, more of whom have to stand in too short Class 170s on XC, etc.

Those trains would not be materially less crowded if the tiny area of first class accommodation was replaced with standard class accommodation. The problem is not the provision of limited first class accommodation, but that the trains are too short for the route they serve.

 

[Intercity 225]

Stoke - Manchester local stopping services

For all the fine people of East Cheshire ))

Haha! It's strange that you mention this because as someone who lives in Manchester but frequently works in Macclesfield I often travel on this route... and when I do I choose to take the local stopping service purely for comfort reasons. The 323s are always much quieter than the First Class on the Virgin & XC services and it's usually possible to have a six seat bay all to yourself even at rush hour. Naturally this provides extra legroom and being 6'2" this is the icing on the cake!

Granted, I'm sure it would be a completely different story if I were travelling in the opposite direction at the times I do

 

[Starmill]

I think the answer here is to look at what new stock is coming and what new First Class can be provided. I am of the view that First Class provision is most sensible where there are long journeys of several hours, people willing to pay for it, and an increase in comfort. As a general rule, First Class with 2+1 seating has value. I also think it would be wrong to decrease standard class accommodation in almost all cases for the benefit of First Class. As some people who currently travel standard would be willing to upgrade, this guarantees an increase accompanying the addition of First Class where it's not currently provided.

My number one candidate is the Welsh Marches line, where there are lots of journeys many hours long on reasonably express trains that run between very far-flung destinations. Of course, First Class is not really appropriate on a train with 2 or 3 coaches that is already full. Something appropriate here would be a fleet of 5 car trains with First Class in about 2/3 of one coach, similar in proportion to a 444. That means most trains go up by 50-100% in standard class and First Class is on top. I'm confident all of this onboard space would be well used, certainly on Swansea - Cardiff - Hereford - Shrewsbury - Manchester or Chester. There may be an issue in that it's a bit of a waste for journeys west of Swansea, but this could be remedied partially with special offers or Advance tickets for journeys from Swansea to West Wales stations. I think a number of routes that will be operated under the Northern Connect brand would be very good with First Class provided capacity can expand enough.

 

[northwichcat]

Mid Cheshire Line
Stoke - Manchester local stopping services

For all the fine people of East Cheshire ))

In the case of Mid-Cheshire you really need an improved service before you can begin to attract the business people (and certain MPs) who go by road to the nearest mainline stations, opposed to catching a train from the nearest station.

 

[robbeech]

How would ticketing work on this? Say you hold an annual 1st season from A to D and it involves 2 trains either A to B to D or A to C to D. Both are permitted routes and the second trains (B or C to D) have first class but the others. (A to B or C) don't. What happens if A to B and A to C start doing first class. Are you able to use it? Will next years ticket automatically cost more because of the additional first class availability? What if you don't want to travel first class on the first train because it offers no benefit but having 2 season tickets would cost more and reduce permitted routes.
What if only 1 of the first routes gained first class? Would your routing then be limited to the other train?

It's all rather confusing.

 

[tsr]

Isn't Stourbridge Town a higher priority?

Wouldn't that basically just be a sticker with "First Class" on it above one of the seats on the thing?

(Come to think of it, some of the 377s get so tatty that you'd effectively be copying that!)

 

[Bishopstone]

If first class is introduced to new routes, it should be on the basis that reasonable occupancy can be sustained from reasonable first class fares. By 'reasonable' I am excluding sub-£20 long distance Advances; over-60s giveaway promotions; week-long on-train supplement upgrades of £10; Privs etc.

It's not much of a business model to invest in a new product, when demand is so low you have to (almost) give it away to students, pensioners and staff to avoid an embarrassing void.

Looking at the list of suggestions, what's the likely size of the market for a £80 FC return from Leeds to Carlisle via S&C, or £110 Crewe-Cardiff? I think that's the starting point in testing commercial viability: not whether you could fill a few seats by deep discounting from day one, to favoured client groups.

 

[dk1]

I'm still amazed the 2-car Anglia 170s where equipped with 1st class for the Norwich-Cambridge launch in 2002. It is not very well used really except when the GEML is blocked & mainly served as staff accommodation. The use of 3-cars has helped balance the standard class crowding in the last few years.

 

[D6975]

Portsmouth to Cardiff?

Oddly enough when I investigated the GWR only "over 60s fares" the other day, they were offering a First Class Fareham to Bristol T M, despite their trains not having it...

Bit of an odd route all round for fares, as the regular SWT stoppers that overlap from Portsmouth to Salisbury do have First, and arguably more spacious rolling stock as well...

There is a first class fare because it's possible to go FC all the way, but none of it on GW unless you do the desperate Bath-TM hop. Two changes are needed, at Southampton and Salisbury. You do it on SWT-SWT-SWT or Southern-SWT-SWT.

 

[yorkie]

How would ticketing work on this? Say you hold an annual 1st season from A to D and it involves 2 trains either A to B to D or A to C to D. Both are permitted routes and the second trains (B or C to D) have first class but the others. (A to B or C) don't. What happens if A to B and A to C start doing first class. Are you able to use it? Will next years ticket automatically cost more because of the additional first class availability? What if you don't want to travel first class on the first train because it offers no benefit but having 2 season tickets would cost more and reduce permitted routes.
What if only 1 of the first routes gained first class? Would your routing then be limited to the other train?

It's all rather confusing.

Looking at return fares, York - Preston is £92.80 1st (which I doubt anyone pays, unless they're on expenses working for a company for whom money is no object) or £41.50 standard, for an any permitted ticket.

If you go via Burnley (on the slow direct train), there is no 1st class fare, but the standard fares for that range from £26 to £32.80.

It's unclear what fare would be proposed by those who want the through trains to have 1st class. Something in the region of £40-45 may attract some 1st class custom, but given there will be no tangible benefit of 1st class I doubt it would do much more than cause overcrowding in standard class at busy times.

The 1st class fare from York to Bradford/Halifax/Hebden Bridge (for which you could normally only use 1st class between York & Leeds, with some exceptions) is £41.80, so Northern wouldn't want it to be lower than that.

I can't see 1st class working on many of the suggestions so far, unless longer rolling stock, with decent 1st class provision, was provided, along with reasonable fares. None of which the DfT will want to happen.

 

[Starmill]

If first class is introduced to new routes, it should be on the basis that reasonable occupancy can be sustained from reasonable first class fares. By 'reasonable' I am excluding sub-£20 long distance Advances; over-60s giveaway promotions; week-long on-train supplement upgrades of £10; Privs etc.

It's not much of a business model to invest in a new product, when demand is so low you have to (almost) give it away to students, pensioners and staff to avoid an embarrassing void.

Looking at the list of suggestions, what's the likely size of the market for a £80 FC return from Leeds to Carlisle via S&C, or £110 Crewe-Cardiff? I think that's the starting point in testing commercial viability: not whether you could fill a few seats by deep discounting from day one, to favoured client groups.

I think this is completely the wrong approach. Rail should aim for fares which are competitive. Most routes offer significant potential for gains in market share. There's no need to try to cream skim if you can run trains efficiently and convey high volumes. This offers the opportunity for lower fares in both classes In many ways this is what's going on in Scotland - very slow or no fare increases, new offers of cheaper fares and significantly expanded capacity at low cost. First Class will grow in popularity I am very confident when their new mainline stock arrives.

 

[dcd]

There is a first class fare because it's possible to go FC all the way, but none of it on GW unless you do the desperate Bath-TM hop. Two changes are needed, at Southampton and Salisbury. You do it on SWT-SWT-SWT or Southern-SWT-SWT.

But the over 60 offer is for GWR services only so why have a first class offer as you could not use it.

 

[swt_passenger]

There is a first class fare because it's possible to go FC all the way, but none of it on GW unless you do the desperate Bath-TM hop. Two changes are needed, at Southampton and Salisbury. You do it on SWT-SWT-SWT or Southern-SWT-SWT.

I appreciate that, but GWR still shouldn't be offering a GWR only First class fare.

 

[D6975]

Sorry- didn't realise it was a GWR only fare. That is a bit odd as only TM-Bath or TM-Swindon if you're travelling at certain times can be done FC on GWR.