Services I think should be used.

[ATW Alex 101]

Liverpool-Norwich put onto cross country using voyagers.
Wrexham-London Marylebone used by chiltern or arriva using Wrexham and shropshire stock.
Manchester-Milford Haven using voyagers on XC

(The suggestions below are made up by me)
Holyhead-Ipswich on EMT using hst/222
Chester-Aberdeen via warrington on cross country using double voyagers splitting at edinburgh and terminating.
Liverpool Lime street-Cardiff on XC via halton curve onto chester and Shrewsbury.
Ipswich-Newcastle/leeds using double XC voyagers via nottingham and voyagers splitting at leeds one terminating.
Liverpool-Leamington spa using turbostars on XC

Any Comments??

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Liverpool-Norwich put onto cross country using voyagers.

Where do they get them from????

Manchester-Milford Haven using voyagers on XC

Again, where do you get them from????

(The suggestions below are made up by me)
Holyhead-Ipswich on EMT using hst/222
Chester-Aberdeen via warrington on cross country using double voyagers splitting at edinburgh and terminating.
Liverpool Lime street-Cardiff on XC via halton curve onto chester and Shrewsbury.
Ipswich-Newcastle/leeds using double XC voyagers via nottingham and voyagers splitting at leeds one terminating.
Liverpool-Leamington spa using turbostars on XC

Any Comments??

For a start where do you get extra 22x classes, and extra 170s?

Other than that, we could also do with routes etc and calling points.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also see this fairly lenghty thread, not quite the same but covers a lot of what you said.

 

[142094]

Think we need to get more stock for the services already running before we start on new routes!

 

[tbtc]

Think we need to get more stock for the services already running before we start on new routes!

^^what he said^^

 

[The Planner]

Liverpool-Norwich put onto cross country using voyagers.

That's been done to death....

Wrexham-London Marylebone used by chiltern or arriva using Wrexham and shropshire stock.

Not in Arriva's franchise or in Chilterns and history sort of tells us something there anyway....

Manchester-Milford Haven using voyagers on XC

Sensible, until someone tells me that 175s hold more (which they probably do...)

Holyhead-Ipswich on EMT using hst/222

Which way is that going ?? and more to the point, why ??

Chester-Aberdeen via warrington on cross country using double voyagers splitting at edinburgh and terminating.

Again, why ??

Liverpool Lime street-Cardiff on XC via halton curve onto chester and Shrewsbury.

Makes more sense than Gerald ever will.

Ipswich-Newcastle/leeds using double XC voyagers via nottingham and voyagers splitting at leeds one terminating.

Would it be any quicker than via London now ??

Liverpool-Leamington spa using turbostars on XC

Pointless, LM to New St and change trains, it doesn't need a direct service.

 

[tbtc]

Any Comments??

Yes, you seem to rather like Voyagers don't you...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Liverpool Lime street-Cardiff on XC via halton curve onto chester and Shrewsbury

Makes more sense than Gerald ever will

If there is any service which needs inventing, would be commercially viable and doesn't involve London (in case any Open Access operators are reading this, which I severely doubt) then something from Liverpool to Wales would be top of my list

Liverpool had direct trains to Cardiff back before Politicians got involved and started insisting on their daft ideas...

 

[WestCoast]

Liverpool-Norwich put onto cross country using voyagers.

I don't think it's suitable really - a four car 158 would suffice (and I doubt if that is even needed beyond Nottingham). I don't think there are that many passengers doing Liverpool/Manchester - Norwich and if they are the current stock is satisfactory.

Even so, due to the high levels of commuters on this service I think 185s would be the most suitable stock - the 170s seemed to be the preferred option under Central Trains.

 

[MCR247]

Something like 170s/185s would be ideal

 

[ChrisCooper]

Another thing with Liverpool to Norwich, why waste 125mph units on a route where there isn't even much 100mph running, let alone 125mph. I think the only section where a 158 can't reach line speed is on the ECML, and that's if they get put on the fast line (which they often don't), and possibly bits of the Erewash Valley and MML (but not by much). Most of Ely to Peterborough is 75mph or less, Grantham to Trowell Junction (where the Erewash Valley is joined) I don't think even gets that. Not sure what the Hope Valley line speed is, but it's not over 100mph. Then it's really not that fast through the busy approach and departure from Manchester and then the approach to Liverpool. A Voyager would be even slower as quite a few of the higher speeds are "SP" differentials (Sprinters). There is then the issue that a 4 car Voyager can carry less than a 4 car 158.

 

[ainsworth74]

There is then the issue that a 4 car Voyager can carry less than a 4 car 158.

Good point. Voyagers are truly awful when it comes to capacity. A 4 car 220 has 174 Standard 26 First, whilst a 3 car 185 (just as an example of unit that's been mentioned on this thread) has 154 Standard and 15 First. So the 220 has a whole extra vehicle to play with yet only manages to fit in 31 extra seats!

Have to say the Liverpool - Norwich does seem like it would be perfect for something like a 172 (like many other routes). Shame none of the ROSCOs are willing to take a risk and order any by themselves.

 

[junglejames]

158s are perfect for Liverpool Norwich.
Having spent quite a bit of time on 158s on numerous routes these last few days, it has reminded me how brilliant these units are.
Why even go with 170s or 185s?
185s are bland and boring, and very very uncomfortable. 170s dont quite have the acceleration of the 158s.

In fact, if the past few days have shown me anything, its that we dont have enough 158s, and this is what we should be building now. Perhaps even uprated 100mph 158s.

 

[tbtc]

158s are perfect for Liverpool Norwich.
Having spent quite a bit of time on 158s on numerous routes these last few days, it has reminded me how brilliant these units are.
Why even go with 170s

Watch 100+ people cram on to a 158 at Manchester Piccadilly (platforms 13/14), then watch a similar number of people board a 170 with wide doors more suitable for faster dwells

I agree about 158s being great units, but they struggle to deal with large numbers of people getting off/on at busy stations like in Manchester (due to the door layout)

 

[rail-britain]

So the 220 has a whole extra vehicle to play with yet only manages to fit in 31 extra seats!

However, in order to meet the requirements to operate at above 100mph a vast amount of the driving coaches is taken up by "unoccupied" carriage
If you deducted this space, in effect a four coach Class 220 would be the same capacity as any other three coach train!
Ironically, you may as well have a loco and three coaches...

 

[swt_passenger]

In fact, if the past few days have shown me anything, its that we dont have enough 158s, and this is what we should be building now. Perhaps even uprated 100mph 158s.

I can think of a nice stretch of infill electrification that could easliy release about 30 x 3 car 159s - they'd be pretty useful for adding capacity to Liverpool - Nottingham - Norwich.

That's the sort of wiring what they should be getting on with...

 

[ATW Alex 101]

i think the holyhead to ipswich would be a good idea as it could provide wales with a direct service to the east anglia.

The chester to scotland service though i think actually wouldnt be great as there are services to scotland anyway from crewe and warrington which are down the road.

i did think that putting liverpool on xc network would be a good idea but also bringing some life into the halton curve and revamping an old service.

 

[ainsworth74]

i think the holyhead to ipswich would be a good idea as it could provide wales with a direct service to the east anglia.

That's nice, but is there actually any quantifiable demand for such a service? We have a shortage of rolling stock any new routes need to have a fantastic business case in my book for them to even be considered (and even then I'm not keen on it).

 

[Central Trains]

Voyagers in my opinion are the worst type of train!!

 

[Greenback]

I'm not aware of any sort of regular demand for travel between North, South or Mid Wales and any part of East Anglia.

I do have friends in Norwich, but a service from Holyhead would not really help me to get to see them!

 

[Spaceflower]

158s are perfect for Liverpool Norwich.
Having spent quite a bit of time on 158s on numerous routes these last few days, it has reminded me how brilliant these units are.
Why even go with 170s or 185s?
185s are bland and boring, and very very uncomfortable. 170s dont quite have the acceleration of the 158s.

In fact, if the past few days have shown me anything, its that we dont have enough 158s, and this is what we should be building now. Perhaps even uprated 100mph 158s.

I would assume the main criteria to meet when designing and building trains is how much money they'd make/save.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also the quality of the sales team may come into it!

 

[Ivo]

I'm not aware of any sort of regular demand for travel between North, South or Mid Wales and any part of East Anglia.

I do have friends in Norwich, but a service from Holyhead would not really help me to get to see them!

There is demand for travel between South Wales and the southern tip of the East England region, but when you consider that said demand is almost mine alone...

 

[Greenback]

So a Holyhead to Ipswich wouldn't help you much either!

 

[Statto]

I'd split the Liverpool=Norwich at Nottingham, with 4 car Trains on Liverpool-Notts section. Why waste Voyagers when they wouldn't be able to do the Voyager speed 125mph.

Liverpool-Leamington Spa, pointless, unless the service continues to the South Coast via Oxford.

Wonder if extending some trains [Peak Hour trains] the Bristol-Manchester line to Liverpool via Warrington, increasing the capacity on that line, could then terminate some EMT Trains at Manchester?

 

[MCR247]

And what would be the point in that? Liverpool - Sheffield has high demand, and you want to change that for a new service :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'd split the Liverpool=Norwich at Nottingham, with 4 car Trains on Liverpool-Notts section. Why waste Voyagers when they wouldn't be able to do the Voyager speed 125mph.

Or you could just run it like now, where only two coaches continue to Norwich....

 

[Bellwater]

Liverpool-Norwich put onto cross country using voyagers.

Thank you and Goodbye...

 

[tbtc]

I can think of a nice stretch of infill electrification that could easliy release about 30 x 3 car 159s - they'd be pretty useful for adding capacity to Liverpool - Nottingham - Norwich.

That's the sort of wiring what they should be getting on with...

I agree with you there

I wish we approached electrification from the viewpoint of "how can we eliminate the most DMUs for every mile of electrification" rather than "how can we randomly spread electrification around the country" because the latter ends up with awkward gaps that means you don't get the full benefit.

For example, wiring relatively short distances like Chester - Crewe, Walsall - Rugeley, Ely - Norwich, Uckfield/Marshlink line etc could free up dozens of DMUs to be used elsewhere

As I see it, it's probably easier/better to (1) wire up some lines, buy new EMUs for them and cascade the DMUs elsewhere than it is to (2) buy new DMUs, because it becomes harder and harder to make a business case for new diesel trains, and nervy ROSCOs don't want to take the risk of investing in new trains that might not be needed for the next thirty years. There will always be a market for EMUs though.

The stretches of SWT line through to Exeter (plus some infill around Southampton) would be a priority for me

 

[MCR247]

Why would Ely- Norwich free up dozens? It might free up a few NXEA 170s but not much. EMT would still use diesel.

 

[tbtc]

Why would Ely- Norwich free up dozens? It might free up a few NXEA 170s but not much. EMT would still use diesel.

It wouldn't free up dozens itself, but the list I gave would free up more units and be shorter/cheaper than GWML electrification

Ely - Norwich would free up some 170s, plus allow for additional London - Norwich services (to run via Cambridge). When they wired up East Anglia they should have done a comprehensive job, rather than NXEA needing a handful of DMUs for branch lines (and the middle-distance Ipswich/Norwich to Cambridge/Peterborough)

 

[ChrisCooper]

Remember that when the wiring was done, Norwich to Cambridge was not run. Ipswich to Peteroborough and Cambridge are local services that would not justify EMUs (unless someone came up with a 2 or even single car 25kV EMU), and the services coming from beyond Peterborough had to be diesel anyway. Wiring up the branches would have been very difficult what with Swing Bridges, marshy ground, running through a National Park (the broads) and provided little benefit.

 

[cuccir]

Would a Holyhead to Harwich service create a small surge demand for through tickets from Ireland to the continent? I'm not entirely sure it would but I'm not the one suggesting the route to start with! There'd certainly be something satisfying about having a direct link from Ireland to Netherlands!

 

[ainsworth74]

There'd certainly be something satisfying about having a direct link from Ireland to Netherlands!

Surely it would be quicker and cheaper to fly from Ireland to the Netherlands?