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Separation of aircraft - comparison with rail.

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AM9

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Moderator note - split from:


This was, of course, the very situation that ETCS was envisaged to prevent. Ah well, the thought was there...

How is it that commercial aircraft fly with complex avionics, communication and navigation systems, irrespective of manufacturer, operating environments, political boundaries and staff training locations have managed to achieve true interoperability, yet manufacturers of relatively less complex rail vehicles fail to deliver that essential performance in the market that they sell despite there being an internationally ratified specification?
 
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najaB

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How is it that commercial aircraft fly with complex avionics, communication and navigation systems, irrespective of manufacturer, operating environments, political boundaries and staff training locations have managed to achieve true interoperability, yet manufacturers of relatively less complex rail vehicles fail to deliver that essential performance in the market that they sell despite there being an internationally ratified specification?
Short answer: The sky is pretty big, and planes are fairly small.

Longer answer: Mainly because aircraft don't need to inter-operate between each other. Each plane is operating more or less independently and the controllers just need to make sure that their paths don't intersect. There's no worry that the plane in front of you might stop unexpectedly so that you run into the back of them. Or that you might fowl a junction, etc.
 

bahnause

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How is it that commercial aircraft fly with complex avionics, communication and navigation systems, irrespective of manufacturer, operating environments, political boundaries and staff training locations have managed to achieve true interoperability, yet manufacturers of relatively less complex rail vehicles fail to deliver that essential performance in the market that they sell despite there being an internationally ratified specification?
This is because, in terms of safety, air transport is not more complex but significantly less complex than rail transport. There are hardly any SIL 4 applications, the infrastructure requirements are minimal, and many of the technical challenges that need to be resolved in rail transport are handled by staff in air transport. Air traffic often appears less complex than rail transport, as it operates on standardised, direct routes in three-dimensional airspace without physical obstacles. Rail systems, on the other hand, have to cope with a centuries-old, rigid infrastructure (rails), complex cross-border systems and frequent services in confined spaces.
 

Julia

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This is because, in terms of safety, air transport is not more complex but significantly less complex than rail transport. There are hardly any SIL 4 applications, the infrastructure requirements are minimal, and many of the technical challenges that need to be resolved in rail transport are handled by staff in air transport. Air traffic often appears less complex than rail transport, as it operates on standardised, direct routes in three-dimensional airspace without physical obstacles. Rail systems, on the other hand, have to cope with a centuries-old, rigid infrastructure (rails), complex cross-border systems and frequent services in confined spaces.
Having seen a few of the Mentour Pilot videos, I did wonder why so much of the actual keeping of planes from colliding with each other, both in the air and on the ground (rather than just flying accurately from A to B) is done by voice contact between humans over radio, rather than tech either in the planes or the airfield grounds. It feels a lot more error-prone than an ECTS equivalent?
 

gravitystorm

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How is it that commercial aircraft fly with complex avionics, communication and navigation systems, irrespective of manufacturer, operating environments, political boundaries and staff training locations have managed to achieve true interoperability, yet manufacturers of relatively less complex rail vehicles fail to deliver that essential performance in the market that they sell despite there being an internationally ratified specification?
Very little (if any?) safety-critical information is passed automatically between ATC systems and planes. The ATC controllers manually interpret their display screens, make decisions themselves, before giving out the equivalent of movement authorities (clearances) verbally. The pilots listen to the radio, and control the plane based on their understanding of the movement authorities received. The system->human->human->system is the basis for interoperability, but also the source of many miscommunications. By contrast, ETCS sends movement authorities directly from the signalling system to the on-board systems, without any of that information being relayed through a human.

There's also no interlocking in aviation movement authorities. For example, a controller can give permission to plane to land, while also giving permission to fire trucks to cross the runway at the same time. There's no engineering safeguards to prevent the controller from giving conflicting clearances. There's also no interlocking on the plane - if the pilots are given a restricted movement authority like "not above 200 knots" then there's nothing on the plane that prevents them from going too fast. ETCS has engineered safeguards to stop conflicting MAs being issued, and also to ensure trains stay within the MA they have received.

The equivalent would be if an ATC system calculated clearances, and those were sent as data over-the-air directly into the on-plane control system. That would mean each plane system would need to be compatible with every control tower system in every country, and every control tower system would need to be able to communicate with every different type of plane. That would be a huge coordination and system design effort.
 

edwin_m

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Aviation has evolved from a system where pilots were entirely responsible to "see and avoid" other traffic, through one where most flights are given instructions and guidance by Air Traffic Control, but there are also some engineered safeguards. For example the Traffic Collision Avoidance System instructs pilots how to evade collisions, though it is only used as a fallback to manual separation by pilots and ATC. This system needs to be interoperable, as the equipment on two potentially colliding aircraft needs to agree on compatible resolution advisories (eg which one should climb and which should descend). TCAS also relies on the transponder system which gives ATC information about each aircraft rather than a simple radar blip - so must also be interoperable. Some airports have "stop bars" which illuminate red lights across entrances to a runway and extinguish the corresponding green taxiway markings when joining the runway is not permitted, although I think these are just manual with no sort of interlocking.

This evolution means that each new practice and system can be added incrementally in higher-risk areas or progressively to aircraft and airports, ultimately becoming mandatory in specified situations with a deadline given in advance for operators to fit new equipment. ETCS is like that to some extent, but probably relatively more significant in cost and difficulty because a train is less complex than an airliner.

Also, with aviation being international in nature and most of those highest-risk situations emerging in the busiest areas normally in the USA, there is less risk of different and incompatible systems evolving that essentially do the same thing, as has happened with railway signalling.
 

AM9

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Aviation has evolved from a system where pilots were entirely responsible to "see and avoid" other traffic, through one where most flights are given instructions and guidance by Air Traffic Control, but there are also some engineered safeguards. For example the Traffic Collision Avoidance System instructs pilots how to evade collisions, though it is only used as a fallback to manual separation by pilots and ATC. This system needs to be interoperable, as the equipment on two potentially colliding aircraft needs to agree on compatible resolution advisories (eg which one should climb and which should descend). TCAS also relies on the transponder system which gives ATC information about each aircraft rather than a simple radar blip - so must also be interoperable. Some airports have "stop bars" which illuminate red lights across entrances to a runway and extinguish the corresponding green taxiway markings when joining the runway is not permitted, although I think these are just manual with no sort of interlocking.

This evolution means that each new practice and system can be added incrementally in higher-risk areas or progressively to aircraft and airports, ultimately becoming mandatory in specified situations with a deadline given in advance for operators to fit new equipment. ETCS is like that to some extent, but probably relatively more significant in cost and difficulty because a train is less complex than an airliner.

Also, with aviation being international in nature and most of those highest-risk situations emerging in the busiest areas normally in the USA, there is less risk of different and incompatible systems evolving that essentially do the same thing, as has happened with railway signalli
My point was really aimed at the difficulties that train manufacturers and infrastructure organisations have in integrating equipment that claims to comply with an international spec.. Maybe the spec is inadequate in defining the interfaces or there is an industry tendency to agree on proprietary offerings that they believe have the lowest upfront costs. The on-site integration then becomes a task of hope, rather than plan - hardly a formula for success.
 

najaB

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My point was really aimed at the difficulties that train manufacturers and infrastructure organisations have in integrating equipment that claims to comply with an international spec.
It's the same problem that is seen everywhere, not just in the railway. "Compatibility" with the spec and "interoperability" aren't the same thing. The issue being that, unless the spec is so proscriptive that it in effect defines the one and only possible implementation, there will always be small differences in interpretation which lead to implementations that are just slightly different enough that they result in issues that only turn up in certain edge cases.
 

AM9

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It's the same problem that is seen everywhere, not just in the railway. "Compatibility" with the spec and "interoperability" aren't the same thing. The issue being that, unless the spec is so proscriptive that it in effect defines the one and only possible implementation, there will always be small differences in interpretation which lead to implementations that are just slightly different enough that they result in issues that only turn up in certain edge cases.
Having worked most of my life in an industry that relies on definitive, almost every major failure has been where the customer didn't really know what they wanted and placed a contrac supported by an ill-defined requirement. Industry then proceeds on the basis of what it can provide at a price within the agreed price, and then either incompatibility rears its ugly head or the customer naïvely expects interoperability such that the product to work within a similar but functionality different system.
Whilst I can understand that deployed signalling systems of the same type are usually bespoke to the actual network and routes that they serve, does this actually affect the on-board equipment or are the difficulties more in the infrastructure locate equipment? If it is the latter, then can every train type likely to use that route network have a standard ETCS fit out, that would (eventually) allow cascading rolling stock between ETCS areas?
 

ainsworth74

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Having seen a few of the Mentour Pilot videos, I did wonder why so much of the actual keeping of planes from colliding with each other, both in the air and on the ground (rather than just flying accurately from A to B) is done by voice contact between humans over radio, rather than tech either in the planes or the airfield grounds. It feels a lot more error-prone than an ECTS equivalent?

In fairness it increasingly isn't as aircraft, or at least commercial aircraft, are fitted with Traffic Collision Avoidance Systems (TCAS) which can talk to each other and will give instructions to pilots if they detect a potential collision. The response is even coordinated so that the two different system give complimentary instructions (so one aircraft will be advised to climb and the other to descend for instance).

Here's a short and sweet explanation:


Or for a slightly longer one:


So ATC still does the day to day controlling of aircraft movements but there are safety systems in place to provide alerts and instructions (which pilots are trained to obey just like they are with Ground Proximity Warning Systems) to avoid collisions if the controller or pilots make a mistake.
 

najaB

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So ATC still does the day to day controlling of aircraft movements but there are safety systems in place to provide alerts and instructions (which pilots are trained to obey just like they are with Ground Proximity Warning Systems) to avoid collisions if the controller or pilots make a mistake.
That's true. However as you point out, things like TCAS and (E)GPWS exist to provide a layer of protection against mistakes by ATC or pilots. Unlike ETCS you hope to never need them.
 

edwin_m

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My point was really aimed at the difficulties that train manufacturers and infrastructure organisations have in integrating equipment that claims to comply with an international spec.. Maybe the spec is inadequate in defining the interfaces or there is an industry tendency to agree on proprietary offerings that they believe have the lowest upfront costs. The on-site integration then becomes a task of hope, rather than plan - hardly a formula for success.
Are the train issues related to the more modern fleets that claim to be "ETCS Ready", or with the older ones like the 66 and the heritage locos that pre-dated any requirement for design provision?

As far as I know, ETCS in the UK will only be in conjunction with re-signalling, or following re-control with an interlocking that already has the necessary interfaces. So there should be very little need for integration with older signalling.
 

Bill57p9

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Very little (if any?) safety-critical information is passed automatically between ATC systems and planes. The ATC controllers manually interpret their display screens, make decisions themselves, before giving out the equivalent of movement authorities (clearances) verbally. The pilots listen to the radio, and control the plane based on their understanding of the movement authorities received. The system->human->human->system is the basis for interoperability, but also the source of many miscommunications. By contrast, ETCS sends movement authorities directly from the signalling system to the on-board systems, without any of that information being relayed through a human.

There's also no interlocking in aviation movement authorities. For example, a controller can give permission to plane to land, while also giving permission to fire trucks to cross the runway at the same time. There's no engineering safeguards to prevent the controller from giving conflicting clearances. There's also no interlocking on the plane - if the pilots are given a restricted movement authority like "not above 200 knots" then there's nothing on the plane that prevents them from going too fast. ETCS has engineered safeguards to stop conflicting MAs being issued, and also to ensure trains stay within the MA they have received.

The equivalent would be if an ATC system calculated clearances, and those were sent as data over-the-air directly into the on-plane control system. That would mean each plane system would need to be compatible with every control tower system in every country, and every control tower system would need to be able to communicate with every different type of plane. That would be a huge coordination and system design effort.
You may be surprised how things have evolved over the past ten years.
CPDLC (CockPit Data Link Communications) offers direct communication between ATC systems and aircraft Flight Management Systems (FMS). ATC cannot send commands directly to the FMS but can send requests which the flight deck crew can choose to accept or reject. It does wonders for removing the scope for human miscommunication from the loop whilst still giving the pilot the final say.
There is some non-invasive functionality that does not have a human in the loop, such as requesting position reports.

There are indeed ATC systems out there that, based on crew requests for clearance, present the controller with the request complete with an assessment as to whether clearance is sufficient, giving the controller the ability to grant the clearance, either unchanged or with modification options.

This is only possible because of CPDLC standards of which there are 2: One primarily in use in North America and the North Atlantic (FANS), the other (ATN which is more an evolution of FANS than completely different) in Europe. Large blocks of airspace are closed to aircraft that are not logging on to CPDLC.

CPDLC is very useful in the cruise but does not work so well in densely packed terminal environments, mainly due to the time crews have to receive, digest and accept or reject instructions. It also doesn’t offer the situational awareness that traditional radio does - The ability to hear what other people are doing, which adds to the number of brains on the matter that could spot an error.

Conformance checking is another feature of many modern ATC systems: They can check data received from various sources and check that this complies with the data that a controller has recorded as having issued as a clearance to a flight: Route, level, QNH setting, etc. Computers are great at routinely checking such parameters, humans considerably less so! No system is infallible though.

With all of this potential capability I will be very interested to read the La Guardia collision report when it is finally available.

International aviation standards are however very slow moving beasts and it takes a long time from the concept of such systems to their sufficient adoption to offer meaningful benefit.
 

edwin_m

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This video describes the runway separation and takeoff hold lights which have some similarities to railway signalling.
These runway status lights are a hot topic right now because these are the same sort of lights that were involved in the accident out of LaGuardia that had the fire truck captain heated the red runway status lights, he would not have pulled out in front of the Canada Air regional jet. This automatic runway status light system is installed at over 20 airports here in the United States, including LA and LaGuardia. And they come in two basic varieties. The runway entrance lights. Those are the lights we're talking about in LaGuardia. And the takeoff hold lights. These are the lights we're talking about today with Air France 025 in Los Angeles.
 

Ediswan

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This video describes the runway separation and takeoff hold lights which have some similarities to railway signalling.
An unusual video. It summarises the incident in the first 20 seconds rather than the common protracted waffling.
 
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