Separate emergency brake and passcom?

[Bletchleyite]

The RSSB made a RED video on the matter, but only the trailer is public. Is there a report (RAIB perhaps) on this somewhere?

Edit: Found it!

I have long been of the view that the typical European arrangement is best, of having a red emergency brake (which stops the train, no question - on LHCS it does this by dumping the brake pipe so it can't be overridden) and a separate green passcom for alerting staff to things that aren't about to cause death/injury if the train doesn't stop immediately (or where it may be better if it didn't), e.g. someone seriously ill or the train being on fire while transiting a tunnel.

Isn't it the case that the Caledonian Sleeper Mk5s have this arrangement, and that they do saved lives when a guard was able to stop the train during the runaway incident before it hit something, which may not have been possible otherwise? I half recall some other UK CAFs do as well - possibly 195s?

Not stopping immediately (because the person who noticed it found the guard rather than pulling said handle) was notably the "trigger" for the Eschede ICE disaster if I recall, so also relevant is not putting people off using it if something is genuinely wrong with threats of fines etc.

 

[edwin_m]

I have long been of the view that the typical European arrangement is best, of having a red emergency brake (which stops the train, no question - on LHCS it does this by dumping the brake pipe so it can't be overridden) and a separate green passcom for alerting staff to things that aren't about to cause death/injury if the train doesn't stop immediately (or where it may be better if it didn't), e.g. someone seriously ill or the train being on fire while transiting a tunnel.

Isn't it the case that the Caledonian Sleeper Mk5s have this arrangement, and that they do saved lives when a guard was able to stop the train during the runaway incident before it hit something, which may not have been possible otherwise? I half recall some other UK CAFs do as well - possibly 195s?

Not stopping immediately (because the person who noticed it found the guard rather than pulling said handle) was notably the "trigger" for the Eschede ICE disaster if I recall, so also relevant is not putting people off using it if something is genuinely wrong with threats of fines etc.

There is a risk that people will pull the passcom for an incident that doesn't justify it. The only time I've ever knowingly been on a train where passcom was operated was leaving New Street, apparently a friend/relative who had got on to help a passenger to their seat but didn't alight in time. Normally that would only be an operational inconvenience, but there's also a hazard if the train stops in a tunnel, viaduct or other place where evacuation or emergency intervention would be difficult. For that reason I believe the traditional passcom brake valve was designed so the driver could maintain air/vacuum by operating the compressor/ejector so as to stop somewhere safer. And would the average passenger realise that in a medical incident to another passenger, it's almost always better to continue to a station where assistance can be provide much more easily?

On modern multiple units the use of an intercom allows the driver to assess the nature of the emergency and decide whether to stop immediately, stop at the next station or continue as scheduled. Thus the passenger, probably not having railway knowledge and possibly in a state of panic, is not faced with a decision between red and green buttons that they aren't necessarily competent to make.

I don't know the details of the valve used to stop the Caledonian Sleeper, but possibly this was in a crew area?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't find a relevant photo of a Mk5, but this Tweet by one of our contributors here:

https://twitter.com/paulmbigland/status/1316617206315266049?lang=el

...shows a photo of the vestibule of a Class 195, in which it can be seen that these, at least visually, have the European arrangement of a green call button and a red emergency brake (behind glass, to encourage the first choice to be the call button).

 

[CarrotPie]

I can't find a relevant photo of a Mk5, but this Tweet by one of our contributors here:

https://twitter.com/paulmbigland/status/1316617206315266049?lang=el

...shows a photo of the vestibule of a Class 195, in which it can be seen that these, at least visually, have the European arrangement of a green call button and a red emergency brake (behind glass, to encourage the first choice to be the call button).

That does make much more sense, because if (say) there's someone ill, you might want to tell the driver (so they can tell control and arrange assistance), but you don't want the train stopped.

 

[skyhigh]

I can't find a relevant photo of a Mk5, but this Tweet by one of our contributors here:

https://twitter.com/paulmbigland/status/1316617206315266049?lang=el

...shows a photo of the vestibule of a Class 195, in which it can be seen that these, at least visually, have the European arrangement of a green call button and a red emergency brake (behind glass, to encourage the first choice to be the call button).

The green button is the same as a call for aid on 15x - it will sound a call tone and allow two-way communication with the conductor.
The red button will sound an alarm in the cab but it can be overridden by the driver to prevent the brakes from applying.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The green button is the same as a call for aid on 15x - it will sound a call tone and allow two-way communication with the conductor.
The red button will sound an alarm in the cab but it can be overridden by the driver to prevent the brakes from applying.

Thanks for the clarification - so the same as the one that's only provided in the toilet on most stock?

That setup makes a lot of sense - most issues just require human intervention. It's to nobody's benefit to waste time stopping the train if someone's having a heart attack, for example - indeed doing so may result in their death as it would delay them getting to somewhere an ambulance could attend, which I guess creates the mentality that overriding it makes sense most of the time rather than it only making sense in some cases e.g. if you're on a viaduct or in a tunnel where stopping could be actively hazardous in the event of e.g. a fire.

Thus on a 195 I guess (I don't know if any staff here can comment based on experience) you'd get far fewer uses of the red handle for things that don't require stopping in the first safe location at least to investigate?

It also makes a lot of sense to have a means of getting staff attention, particularly in a longer train, where the issue is nothing to do with safety but is still serious, e.g. the failure of booked assistance for a wheelchair user, or the failure of the Avanti staff to show up to let a cyclist out on a Pendolino (which I did once pull the red handle at a station for*, because it was the last train of the day and the result of not doing so would have been the cyclist being stranded at Euston with a very long ride back and these days probably a letter asking for a £100 settlement for overtravelling - I got a bit of a snark from the guard but the situation was properly resolved with minimal delay)

* I've pulled it twice. Once was that, the other was for medical assistance on the Tube where there was a panicking kid with his (I assume) Dad who had passed out, on an unrefurbished D78 on which it was just an alarm and emergency brake with no phone-like function. That case was handled appallingly - I pulled it and stood at the open door waving, and it took a good 5 minutes for platform staff to notice me and come over, by which time he'd come round a bit so they helped them both off so they could presumably sit down and get the required medical help. They seemed more interested in making snarky announcements implying that it had been pulled inappropriately.