Senior peoples concessionary bus pass on trains

[D7666]

I'm about 6 mo away from entitlement to a concessionary bus pass. Subject came up in pub a couple of days ago.

I had not heard of this before, but apparently those issued by Luton BC also act as railcards for 50% discount on /local/ train fares, not the one third discount like national rail senior railcards. The persons plural who told me this say they think the discount applies Luton to Bedford, and Luton to Radlett or Elstree - they were not sure (themselves only used them to St.albans or Bedford) - and you do have to buy ticket from office not from machines.

Apparently this came in during the FCC era and continues, and maybe it was a First thing was one persons comment.

Anyway, I went looking for hard gen, both for specific info for the Luton one, and then to look further if they were valid further afield.

Parking, streets and transport | Luton Borough Council

Pay or appeal a Penalty Charge Notice (PCN), parking, find a car park, buses, roadworks and maintenance, how to report an issue, street licences, street cleaning, road safety, rights of way.

m.luton.gov.uk

does not mention this at all.

Just wondering what all the details and catches are e.g. the Luton bus pass cross boundary is off peak 0930-2300 only, so instantly wonder what the train limit is, if any, etc, etc, etc.

This old thread

OAP free bus passes on trains?

Dad has asked me a question and I don't know the answer - can you help? They have a bus-pass (well over 65!) and want to know if they can use it to travel on local trains for free? If so, what determines *local*? Tried to look it up, but explanations are sketchy so I'm hoping the experts...

www.railforums.co.uk

goes into assorted concessions for other areas, I trying to find things like where would a Luton one be accepted, i.e. what exactly is 'local' to Luton, and, above all, anywhere non local accepting them, and, even local, which TOC, and so on

And yes I'll do the obvious like contact Luton BC, but save that for a bit closer to the date . You can bet your boots they won't have the TOC answer,

 

[Watershed]

The discount still exists. The area of validity is shown on the map below, i.e. between Bedford and Elstree & Borehamwood (inclusive) on the Midland Main Line, and between Sandy/Royston (in the north) and Hadley Wood/Crews Hill (in the south) via Stevenage on the East Coast Main Line.



The terms and conditions of the discount are as follows:

Terms & Conditions

1. Holders of Concessionary Bus Permits issued by any Local Authority in Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire can obtain a 50% discount on the following rail fares (Off-Peak Day Single; Anytime Day Single & Off-Peak Day Return) for journeys between any of the stations shown below, after 1000 Mondays to Fridays and all day Saturdays, Sundays and Bank Holidays.

2. The discount is only for the pass holder, even if +C is printed on the pass.

3. These discounted tickets are only valid for travel on Great Northern and Thameslink services. They're not valid on any other operators services.

4. Tickets with this discount must be purchased from any staffed ticket office.

5. They are not available for on-line purchase or from Self-Service Ticket Machines.

6. The person using the ticket must carry their valid Concessionary Bus Permit with them throughout the journey and must show it on demand.

7. The £2.00 accompanied child flat fare tickets are valid with these fares.

8. This offer cannot be used in conjunction with any Railcards or with GroupSave.

9. The Concessionary Travel Scheme is to encourage permit holders to travel by train (rather than bus) on journeys within Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire. Nevertheless, a discounted ticket to Elstree & Borehamwood / Hadley Wood / Crews Hill may be combined with an undiscounted ticket (including a Travelcard) from those stations.

However the train must stop at Elstree & Borehamwood / Hadley Wood / Crews Hill for such a combination of tickets to be valid. A combination of tickets to / from Elstree & Borehamwood / Hadley Wood / Crews Hill is not valid on fast trains which do not stop at Elstree & Borehamwood / Hadley Wood / Crews Hill.

10. Customers wishing to use faster services to London (which do not stop at Elstree & Borehamwood / Hadley Wood / Crews Hill) are permitted to use the following combination of tickets:

Stations Bedford to Harpenden inclusive

An Off-Peak Day Return (CDR) with 50% discount to St Albans combined with an Off-Peak Day Return / Travelcard from St Albans

St Albans

Customers starting their journey at St Albans who wish to use fast train services to London are not entitled to any discount.

Stations Royston / Sandy to Hatfield, Welham Green and Brookmans Park inclusive

An off-Peak Day Return (CDR) with 50% discount to Potters Bar combined with an Off-Peak Day Return / Travelcard from Potters Bar

Potters Bar

Customers starting their journey at Potters Bar who wish to use fast train services are not entitled to any discount

11. Tickets issued in combination with tickets to London (Off-Peak Day Return / Travelcard) may be liable to restricted return travel from London during the Evening peak for trains departing London Kings Cross, St Pancras International or Moorgate between 16.30 and 19.01 inclusive.

The relevant discount code, in case ticket office staff can't find it, is SRS or SCC.

It's unclear to me why the conditions claim that you can't take a fast train to/from London that goes non-stop through a split station such as Elstree & Borehamwood. Such a split is permitted in principle under the NRCoT, and I can see no reason why staff checking tickets onboard trains would deem the combination invalid.

It could be a deliberate attempt at imposing a restriction on non-stop splits (rather than an inaccurate summary of the default NRCoT position), and the NRCoT does allow for the possibility of non-stop splits to be disallowed by one/both of the tickets. But it would be fairly unusual for this to be the case, and in any event it seems highly doubtful that any such restriction - which I can't see any public reference to - would be enforceable if it came down to it.

That being said, from most origins, those holding a Senior Railcard would find it cheaper (or only marginally more expensive) simply to buy a through ticket to London or wherever else they're going. That would also allow them to use all operators rather than being restricted to GTR.

 

[Haywain]

It's unclear to me why the conditions claim that you can't take a fast train to/from London that goes non-stop through a split station such as Elstree & Borehamwood. Such a split is permitted in principle under the NRCoT, and I can see no reason why staff checking tickets onboard trains would deem the combination invalid.

Because it's a condition that applies to this particular discount.

 

[Watershed]

Because it's a condition that applies to this particular discount.

A condition which, as above, is not referenced in any public-facing materials that I can find. If it's intended to be a binding contractual condition, GTR don't appear to be doing a particularly good job of making sure that's the case; NRCoT condition 14.1 refers:

Some Tickets specifically exclude their use in conjunction with other Tickets. This will be made clear in the terms and conditions when buying such Tickets.

 

[ServerHoster]

It's unclear to me why the conditions claim that you can't take a fast train to/from London that goes non-stop through a split station such as Elstree & Borehamwood. Such a split is permitted in principle under the NRCoT, and I can see no reason why staff checking tickets onboard trains would deem the combination invalid.

According to the terms and conditions you posted, the discount is on an off peak or anytime day single or return ticket. The NRCoT condition that allows you to do non-stop splits only applies if one of the tickets is a ranger/rover or season ticket. Since a single or return ticket is not a ranger/rover or season ticket, you can't do a non-stop split. Only exception would usually be if your ticket beyond the discount zone is a ranger/rover or season ticket, but even then, the terms and conditions of the discount bans this.

 

[Watershed]

According to the terms and conditions you posted, the discount is on an off peak or anytime single or return ticket. The NRCoT condition that allows you to do non-stop splits only applies if one of the tickets is a ranger/rover or season ticket.

Or that they're an "area based Ticket". Travelcards are zonal tickets, so the default position is that non-stop splits involving them are permitted.

 

[Haywain]

Luton Council's website does not explain the discount well, but others do. Central Beds is very clear:

If you are purchasing an additional full price (or railcard discounted) ticket to continue your journey beyond the above named stations, you must ensure you are travelling on a train that actually stops at those stations. A discounted rail ticket, purchased with your bus pass, used in conjunction with a full price ticket for the remainder of the journey is not valid on a fast train that passes through those specific stations without stopping.

 

[D7666]

The discount still exists. The area of validity is shown on the map below, i.e. between Bedford and Elstree & Borehamwood (inclusive) on the Midland Main Line, and between Sandy/Royston (in the north) and Hadley Wood/Crews Hill (in the south) via Stevenage on the East Coast Main Line.

View attachment 159156

The terms and conditions of the discount are as follows:

Perfect

Thank you - thats exactly what I wanted to know - and exactly what I thought it might have been with some GN area too as well as the MML if it was - as alleged - a First / FCC thing.

Indeed a national rail SEN card discount apart from anything else is more practical for trips outside, but Luton > Harpenden and or StAlbans I do a lot.

A few pence 50% or 34% discount one a trip 1-2 times a week will soon add up.

 

[Watershed]

Luton Council's website does not explain the discount well, but others do. Central Beds is very clear:

Glad to see that they explain this clearly, but of course the holder of a Luton Council concessionary card would have no reason to check the Central Beds council website. The industry has quite a bit more to do here.

 

[geoffk]

I've not heard of the Bedfordshire scheme. Bus pass holders' options are limited in certain other areas where there is a poor or very indirect bus service for reasons of local geography but a reasonably good rail service. One of these is the Tamar Valley line in Devon/Cornwall and another the Esk Valley in North Yorkshire. Also there's the Norwich - Lowestoft line where the only crossing of the River Yare at Reedham is by rail or else a chain ferry carrying three cars.

In each case it would be reasonable for a concession to be available for the rail journey. Some work has been done on this in the past but in the current financial climate any extension of the ENCTS to specific rail lines seems unlikely.

 

[wildcard]

I have a Herts CC issued ENCTS . There is no mention of this scheme on the HCC website that I can find . However its somewhat academic in my case as I have yet to travel between the qualifying stations . Now if it had been Tring to Carpenters Park - that would be different .

 

[ClivePage]

The discount still exists. The area of validity is shown on the map below, i.e. between Bedford and Elstree & Borehamwood (inclusive) on the Midland Main Line, and between Sandy/Royston (in the north) and Hadley Wood/Crews Hill (in the south) via Stevenage on the East Coast Main Line.

View attachment 159156

The terms and conditions of the discount are as follows:


The relevant discount code, in case ticket office staff can't find it, is SRS or SCC.

It's unclear to me why the conditions claim that you can't take a fast train to/from London that goes non-stop through a split station such as Elstree & Borehamwood. Such a split is permitted in principle under the NRCoT, and I can see no reason why staff checking tickets onboard trains would deem the combination invalid.

It could be a deliberate attempt at imposing a restriction on non-stop splits (rather than an inaccurate summary of the default NRCoT position), and the NRCoT does allow for the possibility of non-stop splits to be disallowed by one/both of the tickets. But it would be fairly unusual for this to be the case, and in any event it seems highly doubtful that any such restriction - which I can't see any public reference to - would be enforceable if it came down to it.

That being said, from most origins, those holding a Senior Railcard would find it cheaper (or only marginally more expensive) simply to buy a through ticket to London or wherever else they're going. That would also allow them to use all operators rather than being restricted to GTR.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Dec 2024 ==

I wonder if you could tell me where you found these details online?

I've searched the websites of National Rail and Govia Thameslink and Luton Council without any luck. It's clear that the discount still exists, but I only found out about it yesterday thanks to a very helpful ticket office assistant at Luton Station who noticed my Bus Pass when I was showing her my Railcard and said I could get an even cheaper ticket to St.Albans.

 

[Haywain]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Dec 2024 ==

I wonder if you could tell me where you found these details online?

I've searched the websites of National Rail and Govia Thameslink and Luton Council without any luck. It's clear that the discount still exists, but I only found out about it yesterday thanks to a very helpful ticket office assistant at Luton Station who noticed my Bus Pass when I was showing her my Railcard and said I could get an even cheaper ticket to St.Albans.

You can find it on the Central Beds Council website, here.

 

[ClivePage]

Glad to see that they explain this clearly, but of course the holder of a Luton Council concessionary card would have no reason to check the Central Beds council website. The industry has quite a bit more to do here.

Well as far as I can discover, the Luton Council website doesn't mention the rail discount at all, although I'm fairly sure it used to a few years ago. I also vaguely remember seeing that the rail discount had vanished with the last round of Council cuts. Anyhow, saying that they don't explain it "clearly" is a bit of an understatement. And while Central Beds Council does cover it with slightly more detail, those with a bus pass from another council have no reason to guess that it might apply to them as well. I have emailed the relevant department at Luton Council to ask for full details, and am promised a reply within 10 working days, so maybe by mid-January if I'm lucky. And I see that it's another discount only available from a staffed ticket office; it was only a short while back that the rail companies wanted to do away with all of them, thus presumably doing away with all such discounts. Such caring behaviour from all of them.

 

[SAPhil]

Hertfordshire Council used to link to a page on the national rail site, this page was lost when the national rail site was revamped so for a while the link went nowhere. Instead of adding the information themselves, Hertfordshire Council now seem to have removed it completely! Every time I use this benefit, usually from St Albans to Luton Parkway, I expect to find that it has been withdrawn. I'm sure it's only a matter of time!

 

[ClivePage]

I have now had an official reply from buspass@luton.gov.uk saying they don't know anything about it. I have just replied saying that taking a month to provide such a ridiculous response is unacceptable and I'll raise this as a formal complaint if they cannot do better. I am certain that these discounts are the result of negotations between local councils and the rail operators, but it is very frustrating that nobody wants to publicise them.

 

[SAPhil]

Bus passes are administered at county council level, so while it might be nice if your local council knew about it , all queries about this scheme should go to either Bedfordshire (in your case) council or Hertfordshire council .

 

[ClivePage]

In my case Luton, a unitary authority, is the "County Council" and it does issue the bus pass and in the past has negotiated with the local train operator, when it was First Capital Connect, to support rail discounts. It is clear that these discounts continue, but really stupid that neither the Council nor the railway company will provide any information about them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jan 2025 ==

I forgot to add (in case news travels slowly in your part of the world) Bedfordshire County Council was abolished in 2009.

 

[Haywain]

Bus passes are administered at county council level, so while it might be nice if your local council knew about it , all queries about this scheme should go to either Bedfordshire (in your case) council or Hertfordshire council .

Luton is a unitary authority.

 

[ClivePage]

Actually I just said that in my post 8 minutes earlier than yours. News obviously does travel slowly in some places

 

[Haywain]

Actually I just said that in my post 8 minutes earlier than yours. News obviously does travel slowly in some places

Thank you. I hadn't read your subsequent post at the time. I don't feel it warrants comments that are perhaps a bit snarky though.

 

[ClivePage]

Ok, sorry about that, yours was also a useful comment. I didn't mean to offend.

 

[ClivePage]

I have now after about 2 months had a sensible response to my enquiry to Luton Borough Council. There is a 50% discount for all bus pass holders on Thameslink trains between Bedford and Elstree. This is only avaiable if you buy a ticket at a ticket office, not online or of course using contactless travel.

The Luton.gov.uk website still doesn't show anything about this, but they have admitted that it should do so and are in negotiations with the department that controls their website. They have agreed to update the website but it is not a high priority, apparently.

I guess the bus pass department of a council is the staffed by those who drew the short straw: the first member who responded said he didn't know anything about this. He was, they now claim, a new member of the team and thus ignorant. The idea that he should have asked someone more senior for information doesn't seem to have occured to anyone. The more senior member took three goes to send me an email (the first was to an incorrect address, she didn't seem to know about copy/paste or reply functions of emailers; the second attempt send me an encrypted attachment with no way to decrypt it). I'm fairly sure that their website had information about this in the days of First Capital Connect so someone deliberately removed this from the Council website and didn't replace it when Govia Thameslink took over. And we pay the salaries of these people from our Council Tax!

 

[Western Sunset]

Lighten up a bit, Clive.