Senior Bus Passes

[Mark L]

If the card doesn't scan there is a trivial way for the driver to know that it is valid: just look at the front of it. They all have a standard form with a photo of the user and an expiry date. As these cards never scan on London buses the drivers there always have to look at the pass, if they can be bothered. So in my view there is no circumstance in which a valid pass fails to be valid just because some poorly-maintained scanner on a bus happens to not work properly.

Do ETMs such as Ticketer have the ability to manually record an ENCTS pass? I’d not, and the pass doesn’t scan, the operator would not receive payment for the journey.

 

[RT4038]

Do ETMs such as Ticketer have the ability to manually record an ENCTS pass? I’d not, and the pass doesn’t scan, the operator would not receive payment for the journey.

That is the operators problem (who could have specified this), not the ENCTS pass holder.

Like many other things in the transport industry, if the OP pushes hard enough they will get their refund. (assuming the pass is not in an unusable condition due to not being looked after by the holder).

 

[Merle Haggard]

Scottish passes used to have an expiry date but this was dropped around 10 years ago.

Doesn't it have the user's name or photo on it? Can't see the Proof Of Age Standards Scheme hologram either.

 

[ClivePage]

Do ETMs such as Ticketer have the ability to manually record an ENCTS pass? I’d not, and the pass doesn’t scan, the operator would not receive payment for the journey.

They obviously do on London buses as TfL chose not to update their equipment to handle non-Freedom-Pass cards, so the driver is supposed to press a button to record each entry of anyone using an out-of-London Bus Pass, and mostly they do so. I don't know whether they can do that in other areas, if not that does mean a loss of revenue, which I don't suppose the driver cares about much. Many times I've been waved on board by a driver who knows his bus pass reader isn't working. Once, in Leicester, I got a complaint from a driver that my non-Leicester bus pass had caused his computer to crash so he had to reboot it. I was amused, but I don't think he was. But he let me on board anyway. If there is a loss of revenue that is good, as it gives the bus company an fairly strong incentive to fix their equipment. And it's their equipment which is almost always at fault not the cards.

My experience is that cards with embedded RFID chips are extremely robust and long-lived. I've used the same physical Oyster Card around London quite frequently for well over a decade, and know many other people with similar experience. I have half-a-dozen bank cards with RFID chips which always seem to work - again because the retailers have a very strong incentive to keep their machines working.

 

[Haywain]

There often will be no loss of revenue as in many cases the councils pay the bus operator a lump sum. London buses are franchises so the operator doesn't lose anything as all fare revenue, I believe, goes to TfL.

 

[ClivePage]

In that case why are the London bus drivers supposed to record each outside-London bus pass?

 

[WestAnglian]

There often will be no loss of revenue as in many cases the councils pay the bus operator a lump sum. London buses are franchises so the operator doesn't lose anything as all fare revenue, I believe, goes to TfL.

Is that the norm? I used to attend my local district transport forum as a parish council representative and a bus operator asked us to make as many journeys as possible on our passes as they received income from each journey. I think the figure was about 60% of the adult fare.

 

[Haywain]

Is that the norm?

I don’t know but I can see why it is beneficial for both parties.

 

[Merle Haggard]

In that case why are the London bus drivers supposed to record each outside-London bus pass?

On the (not-numerous) occasions I travel in London using my 'provincial' bus pass although I show it drivers never seem to look at it. Indeed, some seem to make a point of looking to their right when passengers are boarding, possibly so that they can ignore questions.

 

[Haywain]

In that case why are the London bus drivers supposed to record each outside-London bus pass?

Because statistics about usage are always useful.

 

[cainebj]

Is that the norm? I used to attend my local district transport forum as a parish council representative and a bus operator asked us to make as many journeys as possible on our passes as they received income from each journey. I think the figure was about 60% of the adult fare.

It is one of the methods used, I've worked for operators who are reimbursed under 3 different calculation methods from different local authorities.

Some local authorities make a reimbursement offer for the year based on the previous year figures, split out as twelve equal payments across the year. They calculate the average cash fare sold, apply the "no better no worse off" factor, apply an inflationary increase then either multiply by the previous year number of pass scans or an average over the previous few years.

Some authorities use the previous year sales data to calculate a reimbursement base rate using the Department for Transport fare calculator, add an inflationary rate to create a base rate for the new financial year, then they use monthly reports to reimburse operators based on the number of pass scans (number of pass scans for the month x base rate).

The other method reimburses operators based on the journey taken, which catches out visitors to Cumbria etc. When presenting their pass the passenger needs to state their destination and they are issued with a zero cost to/from ticket. Back office software logs the shadow fare (fare that would be charged to a fare paying passenger), each month a report is generated where the total shadow fares has the "no better no worse off" factor applied, plus discounts for selling return or day tickets etc.

 

[Haywain]

It is one of the methods used, I've worked for operators who are reimbursed under 3 different calculation methods from different local authorities.

For the operators, is this a negotiation or a take it or leave it option? And is the current fare cap likely to have simplified things or saved money for councils?

 

[Buzby]

Doesn't it have the user's name or photo on it? Can't see the Proof Of Age Standards Scheme hologram either.

Yes to the first two, as for the latter PASS is primarily an E&W concoction for proof of age for younger individuals. Concession NEC holders have already verified their age to the Council (or nominated agency) to permit the card being issued.

 

[Merle Haggard]

In Northamptonshire - at least as far as Stagecoach goes - the system was to calculate the average fare paid by fare paying passengers on each route. This was then applied to each journey by a bus pass holder on that particular route, reduced by some factor.
It did mean that if a pass holder travelled from the outskirts of a town to its centre on a long distance route (as I sometimes did) the bus company may have received more compensation than the rider would have been charged at the full public fare, but at least it reflected the different likely journeys between town and country routes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jun 2026 ==

Yes to the first two, as for the latter PASS is primarily an E&W concoction for proof of age for younger individuals. Concession NEC holders have already verified their age to the Council (or nominated agency) to permit the card being issued.

Thanks - from your photo, the card seemed to just consist of the national flag.

 

[Buzby]

My experience is that cards with embedded RFID chips are extremely robust and long-lived.

I beg to differ - the chips are fine, the embedded loop aerial is a different case, I’ve had 3 replaced in 6 years as the process of placing it in and removing from my wallet (which must be done as it is one of many causing RFID clashes) caused the plastic to fracture over time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jun 2026 ==

Thanks - from your photo, the card seemed to just consist of the national flag.

That’s the ‘official’ image Transport Scotland released, with no photo or name in place!

 

[Mark L]

There often will be no loss of revenue as in many cases the councils pay the bus operator a lump sum. London buses are franchises so the operator doesn't lose anything as all fare revenue, I believe, goes to TfL.

London Councils administers payment to TfL and other operators in respect of statutory concessionary pass use in London. The cost of the 60+ Oyster card is met by the mayor’s office.

 

[kijeta]

If the card doesn't scan there is a trivial way for the driver to know that it is valid: just look at the front of it. They all have a standard form with a photo of the user and an expiry date.

I've even tried to show that driver the hologram by waving it like a heliograph. The driver didn't seem to budge, so I decided to just stop wasting their time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jun 2026 ==

Do ETMs such as Ticketer have the ability to manually record an ENCTS pass? I’d not, and the pass doesn’t scan, the operator would not receive payment for the journey.

I've seen multiple operators' Ticketer menu having a "Manual Conc (£0.00)" option. I've even seen Arriva 757 print a paper ticket out after visual inspection of another passenger's ENCTS, which failed to scan - although they didn't pick it up from the machine, so the driver put it in a paper document bag.

 

[Deerfold]

Those scheme do require some form of payments, and a not free, incase some people were wondering.

That's not always the case.
In West Yorkshire all local pass holders are entitled to half price train travel within West Yorkshire after 0930.
Blind pass holders are allowed free travel for themselves and a companion at any time.

In South Yorkshire local pass holders can travel free on the tram and at half price on local trains after 0930. The discount on train fares used to apply to journeys from South Yorkshire into West Yorkshire.

In the West Midlands local pass holders get free train and tram travel after 0930 with all forms of transport accepting then until midnight instead of 2300 and the trams allowing use until the end of service.

In Nottingham, Nottingham pass holders get free tram travel at all times, Nottinghamshire pass holders after 0930 with non-local holders getting reduced fares.

All these are with no fee.

In Greater Manchester there's a bargain fee of £10/year for local pass holders to travel after 0930 on local trams and trains.

 

[Haywain]

Those scheme do require some form of payments, and a not free, incase some people were wondering.

Further to the above, passes issued by the councils in Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire allow half price travel by train on the Thameslink and Great Northern routes within the two counties and no extra payment for the pass is required.

 

[Dwarfer1979]

If the card doesn't scan there is a trivial way for the driver to know that it is valid: just look at the front of it. They all have a standard form with a photo of the user and an expiry date. As these cards never scan on London buses the drivers there always have to look at the pass, if they can be bothered. So in my view there is no circumstance in which a valid pass fails to be valid just because some poorly-maintained scanner on a bus happens to not work properly.

Doesn't prove it is valid, just proves it was when issued. There are a lot of ways for a card to look right externally but not be valid and you may be surprised how good some of the fraudsters can be these days with producing fully fake passes generally though some of the security things like holograms may still mean that concessionary passes are difficult to do properly. If a pass is reported lost or used fraudulently then it can be cancelled through the system which will add it to a list of blocked cards (called hot listing) and so it won't read on machines. Also if you move areas you are supposed to get a new card from your new local authority and return the old one, another case where if caught/reported a card may get hot listed. I have come across incidences where someone lost their old one, got a new one then found the old one and tried to use both cards so it can happen and we have had numerous incidences of concessionary passes being "loaned" to family members which were often caught as there was an issue with the card that caught the drivers attention. With a non-local card it is more likely to be a programming issue than the hot list has updated a non-local operator so most drivers will accept but technically if it won't scan you cannot be sure it is actually valid.

It is also rarely a "poorly-maintained scanner" that is the issue as if that is the case nothing will scan and the driver will know about it and the operator will quickly notice as well. The issue with non-local cards is often that the programming of the issuing council does not match that the system is set up to read due to some change made by the council, local operators will have been on the list to be updated and so they read locally but non-local operators only find out if enough people from that area both use their buses to experience the problem and then report it to the operator for them to start trying to find the reason. In most cases neither of those bits ever happen so the operator never knows what the issue is. There are programming short cuts that are supposed to deal with this issue, our programmer uses these but we still occasionally get reported issues of some non-local card reading which show that even if the operator does everything they can there can still be issues.

Do ETMs such as Ticketer have the ability to manually record an ENCTS pass? I’d not, and the pass doesn’t scan, the operator would not receive payment for the journey.

Depends on the operator as that is just a setting in their programming but even if it does there are councils out there who will only reimburse on scans as anything else is open to fraud from the operator or drivers though I think most include manual entries but start investigating if the reporting system starts showing a lot of manual passes being recorded.

There often will be no loss of revenue as in many cases the councils pay the bus operator a lump sum. London buses are franchises so the operator doesn't lose anything as all fare revenue, I believe, goes to TfL.

It isn't the most common way, the fixed pot system (where operators get an agreed lump sum) was pretty universally employed around COVID to avoid operators losing too much income but most councils now have gone back to a calculated reimbursement based on usage. A few councils, particularly small ones who didn't have the resources or funding for more complicated or open schemes, used it before COVID and there are still a few using it after.

The most common option these days are that Operators will receive a specified sum of money per passenger, the calculation most commonly used is for a percentage of average adult fare (you add up all single, return & day - in some cases also weekly - tickets and divide it by usage with a divider for multi use tickets such as 2 for return, 3 or 4 for days & somewhere around 6-8 for weeks to give the average income per adult ticket) which is then divided by a generation factor (a number based on the assumption that free travel generates extra passengers though generation factors above 30% are usual and 50% or more not rare even though I don't know of any operator who reported more than 20% growth on concessionary passengers after the free scheme was introduced) to give the amount per ticket. This is based on the "shadow fare", this is what would be paid if the £3 fare cap did not exist so the fare cap doesn't changed what the council pays.

Paying the equivalent of the actual journey taken, minus an agreed generation factor, was common early on in the scheme but very rare nowadays but some operators/authorities still like to record the journey so they can compare what is being paid to what is being travelled and I'm sure there are all sorts of variations on the various standard ways of working out the reimbursement.

In London the issue is the underlying local authorities pass the money assigned for concessionary travel to TfL and since for most of the routes within Greater London that involves a TfL service the recording of the passes doesn't affect the reimbursement and since TfL operators are paid the same amount regardless of the number of passengers there is not really any great incentive on the operator to ensure everything is recorded and the drivers know how the system works and so also don't feel particularly engaged in that side of it so recording is not prioritised.

For the operators, is this a negotiation or a take it or leave it option? And is the current fare cap likely to have simplified things or saved money for councils?

Whilst councils may discuss the reimbursement rate if there is an issue at the end of the day it is a "take it" option (there is no "leave it" option as, if you are running a service included in the scheme, you must accept concessionary passes and accept the rate agreed) if the council insist. There is an appeals process if an operator really feels like it is unfair but the underlying recommended reimbursement calculation mechanism is so skewed in the favour of government that most operators won't (& the headlines and relationship damage of doing so against your council is unlikely to be worth it for the extra income you gain).

 

[Simon75]

I

I've even tried to show that driver the hologram by waving it like a heliograph. The driver didn't seem to budge, so I decided to just stop wasting their time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jun 2026 ==


I've seen multiple operators' Ticketer menu having a "Manual Conc (£0.00)" option. I've even seen Arriva 757 print a paper ticket out after visual inspection of another passenger's ENCTS, which failed to scan - although they didn't pick it up from the machine, so the driver put it in a paper document bag.

I thought the 757 (Greenline) passes went valid?

 

[kijeta]

I thought the 757 (Greenline) passes went valid?

I go between London and Luton regularly, it's not publicised well but they do accept ENCTS throughout the route - in the statutory hours only (despite both London and Luton having some discretionary extended hours, that doesn't apply on 757, even for local journeys).

 

[Haywain]

I go between London and Luton regularly, it's not publicised well but they do accept ENCTS throughout the route - in the statutory hours only (despite both London and Luton having some discretionary extended hours, that doesn't apply on 757, even for local journeys).

My understanding is they are accepted except for boarding at Luton Airport.

 

[kijeta]

My understanding is they are accepted except for boarding at Luton Airport.

I have successfully boarded at Luton Airport, both directions.

 

[overthewater]

It's good to know English council are more generous with the trains than any Scottish council.

Further to the above, passes issued by the councils in Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire allow half price travel by train on the Thameslink and Great Northern routes within the two counties and no extra payment for the pass is required.

That's not always the case.
In West Yorkshire all local pass holders are entitled to half price train travel within West Yorkshire after 0930.
Blind pass holders are allowed free travel for themselves and a companion at any time.

In South Yorkshire local pass holders can travel free on the tram and at half price on local trains after 0930. The discount on train fares used to apply to journeys from South Yorkshire into West Yorkshire.

In the West Midlands local pass holders get free train and tram travel after 0930 with all forms of transport accepting then until midnight instead of 2300 and the trams allowing use until the end of service.

In Nottingham, Nottingham pass holders get free tram travel at all times, Nottinghamshire pass holders after 0930 with non-local holders getting reduced fares.

All these are with no fee.

In Greater Manchester there's a bargain fee of £10/year for local pass holders to travel after 0930 on local trams and trains.

 

[Buzby]

It's good to know English council are more generous with the trains than any Scottish council.

No really! SPT cards offer discounted travel on rail journeys and have done for many years. The discount recently dropped slightly due to the ending of peak fares but as tickets must be purchased at a TO or on-train if shut (not on TVMs) it works well for local journeys, sometimes either a better discount than using a standard Railcard.