Senior Bus Passes

[Mark L]

It is certainly true that the monarch never dies - that upon death, the succession passes instantaneously to the next in line, there being no interregnum. I remember when Elizabeth died, a few rather tortuous explanations of this concept appeared in the media. I also remember as a boy reading in the Guinness Book of Records about the shortest amount of time a peerage was held, and it was the 'split second' that a court assumed that an heir survived his father when both died in a Blitz bomb incident.

The approved term to describe this scenario is “The demise of the Crown”. It covers both death and abdication.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Time surely to return to the subject of the thread..."Senior Bus Passes"

 

[John Luxton]

There was an interesting court case which resulted in gaol time and the demise of the long standing operator Express Motors (established 1909) of Wales eight years ago which involved scanning senior bus passes the story can be read on this link:

https://cbwmagazine.com/express-motors-five-jailed-for-fraud-by-false-representation/

That was the second prosecution in Wales for fraudulently scanning senior bus passes. Padarn Bus closed in 2014 and its directors gaoled.

https://cbwmagazine.com/padarn-bus-directors-jailed-combined-eight-years/

 

[Simon75]

Wouldn't it be easier in England, aay for example Department of Transport be responsible for bus passes (senior and disabled) rather thsn council, PTEs ?

 

[Haywain]

Wouldn't it be easier in England, aay for example Department of Transport be responsible for bus passes (senior and disabled) rather thsn council, PTEs ?

It's the responsibility of local authorities (PTEs don't exist any more). Why on earth would centralising it with DfT be "easier", and who would it be easier for?

 

[Roger1973]

Wouldn't it be easier in England, aay for example Department of Transport be responsible for bus passes (senior and disabled) rather thsn council, PTEs ?

It's the responsibility of local authorities (PTEs don't exist any more). Why on earth would centralising it with DfT be "easier", and who would it be easier for?

And 'nationalising' concessionary travel would probably remove local authority discretion to offer something above the statutory minimum, as in travel outside the statutory hours, travel on other forms of transport (trams, trains, metro systems etc), companion passes for disabled people.

Or alternatively local authorities who wanted to retain / provide additional concessions would have to set up a separate local scheme.

 

[extendedpaul]

And 'nationalising' concessionary travel would probably remove local authority discretion to offer something above the statutory minimum, as in travel outside the statutory hours, travel on other forms of transport (trams, trains, metro systems etc), companion passes for disabled people.

Or alternatively local authorities who wanted to retain / provide additional concessions would have to set up a separate local scheme.

My bus pass issued by Medway Council last October has so far worked fine in SE England and in Swindon, Bristol, Cirencester and Norwich. In Milton Keynes it generated a not valid message on both Arriva and Stagecoach buses and also on the Stagecoach bus from Stratford upon Avon to Leamington Spa. It wasn't accepted at all in Manchester, Liverpool and Southport.

So far each driver has allowed travel though one grumpy chap told me I ought to "get it fixed". That prompted me to contact my council where I was told they were aware of the problem but not the reason. Advice was to pay the fare if necessary and then claim a refund.

 

[ChrisC]

My bus pass issued by Medway Council last October has so far worked fine in SE England and in Swindon, Bristol, Cirencester and Norwich. In Milton Keynes it generated a not valid message on both Arriva and Stagecoach buses and also on the Stagecoach bus from Stratford upon Avon to Leamington Spa. It wasn't accepted at all in Manchester, Liverpool and Southport.

So far each driver has allowed travel though one grumpy chap told me I ought to "get it fixed". That prompted me to contact my council where I was told they were aware of the problem but not the reason. Advice was to pay the fare if necessary and then claim a refund.

At the end of March last year all Nottinghamshire County Council issued bus passes stopped working on most buses throughout the country. There was a major software problem and it took a few weeks to get it sorted. It wasn’t too bad locally because all local bus drivers were made aware of the problem. It did cause problems using a Nottinghamshire issued pass in other areas because the bus drivers would not be aware of this. I did come across a couple of grumpy drivers but most were ok about it
and recorded the pass manually. I never had to pay. The software issue did not affect Notti Guam City issued passes.

The problem was eventually resolved but even many months later my Nottinghamshire pass would not scan on Arriva buses when I tried to use it in Kent, Hertfordshire and even as close to home in Derby last August. It did work in Leicestershire just before Christmas so I hope the issue is now resolved. I will find out in a couple of weeks time when I will be using Arriva buses in Durham.

 

[Simon75]

It's the responsibility of local authorities (PTEs don't exist any more). Why on earth would centralising it with DfT be "easier", and who would it be easier for?

Wales do ?

 

[Simon75]

Wales do ?

Also fairer for bus companies to get the same amount rebate, rather than different rates depending on council

 

[Dwarfer1979]

It's the responsibility of local authorities (PTEs don't exist any more). Why on earth would centralising it with DfT be "easier", and who would it be easier for?

1. Operators would only have a single claim rather than having to do multiple claims to cover each council (a single depot could serve half a dozen different authorites if you are unlucky with unitaries each of whom need seperate claims, multiple depot operations could clear a dozen). It also means that the government/council are only processing 1 claim per operator rather than 1 per operator per council which mounts up quickly so there is a admin saving on both sides

2. Councils are no longer on the hook for funding a central government scheme. Whilst councils do get some funding from central government to pay for free bus travel by concessionary passengers it is not actually based on bus usage (general or specific) or how much is paid out so many councils are subsidising this central government scheme with little ability to stop or change the parameters (I think it was based largely on population which meant it is possible for an area to have funding to pay for free passes without having any qualifying services that they can be used on - Isles of Scilly for instance). Even 20 years ago for instance Derbyshire were reportedly subsidising the scheme by £1 million per year. Whilst some coastal authorities got a little extra money to reflect the extra incoming tourists those areas attracted this didn't cover inland counties like Derbyshire and with the Peak District having 6 big conurbations on their doorstep but outside the authority area (Manchester, Sheffield, the Potteries, Derby City is a seperate unitary, Nottingham plus West Yorkshire) there was a big inbalance.

As mentioned it does make doing local enhancements more complicated but that is a smaller number of authorities involved than everyone and makes it clearer how much money the local council is actually providing for the enhancement. The companion pass entitlement for some disabled travellers is the biggest issue with a nationally managed scheme as they are always local enhancements rather than part of the national scheme and the need to show the entitlement makes managing it harder (local time enhancements could still be based on standard cards to show entitlement in theory though it would be harder to restrict it to residents).

 

[Haywain]

Moving it to central government would also make it easier to reduce the scope of the scheme and the benefits, as well as removing local enhancements.

 

[kijeta]

Advice was to pay the fare if necessary and then claim a refund

Have they specified from whom the refund should be claimed? I had trouble using a London-issued bus pass on Coach Services (Thetford), and the driver was adamant that I must buy a ticket. I asked whether I might be able to ask for a reimbursement and they seemed completely uninterested in answering. I was only intending to take it one stop, so I walked it - but it had left me wondering, if I did buy a ticket then, would I even have any grounds to claim a reimbursement from either the operator, Norfolk, London, or even my borough?

 

[JKP]

Moving it to central government would also make it easier to reduce the scope of the scheme and the benefits, as well as removing local enhancements.

Like Wales, in Scotland operators make their claim from a centralised body Transport Scotland. The scheme is standard throughout the country with no nonsense about peak hour restriction. It is also valid on express coach services though not cross Border routes.
Some local authorities enhance the scheme for pensioners, blind and disabled by allowing travel locally on trains.

 

[John Luxton]

Living on Merseyside I received the Merseyside only concession rail, bus and ferry from my 60th birthday and then received my upgrade to the all England pass last autumn.

So far I have used my England pass in Lancashire, Cheshire, Shropshire, Devon and Cornwall as well as Merseyside - but I also go to Wales quite a lot where it is not valid.

I have thought that perhaps there should be an upgrade paid for option for us to pay say an extra £50 to £100 a year for a UK wide one.

Such a pass wouldn't be for everyone but it is certainly an option I would take out; and I dare say others who live close to England Wales or England Scotland borders might find useful.

Also if we actually paid something towards it would also serve to diffuse some of the comments appearing in some sections of the the media that suggest that along with the triple lock us pensioners are doing better these days than the youngsters!

 

[Dwarfer1979]

Have they specified from whom the refund should be claimed? I had trouble using a London-issued bus pass on Coach Services (Thetford), and the driver was adamant that I must buy a ticket. I asked whether I might be able to ask for a reimbursement and they seemed completely uninterested in answering. I was only intending to take it one stop, so I walked it - but it had left me wondering, if I did buy a ticket then, would I even have any grounds to claim a reimbursement from either the operator, Norfolk, London, or even my borough?

You would claim a refund from the operator who you believe has incorrectly charged you, they received the money, it doesn't really have anything to do with the councils unless they have changed something which is the reason why your card isn't scanning on non-local operators.

 

[Simon75]

How does thr Northern Ireland scheme work compared with the rest of the UK ?

 

[kijeta]

You would claim a refund from the operator who you believe has incorrectly charged you, they received the money, it doesn't really have anything to do with the councils unless they have changed something which is the reason why your card isn't scanning on non-local operators.

Thanks. Would the private operator be obligated to issue a refund? Surely they're financially incentivised to say "The card failed to scan on our readers, the driver was not certain that it's valid at this time/it's being used by the card holder/hasn't been hotlisted/etc."

I couldn't find any guidelines from London Councils about a forgotten card, but this page (https://www.freedompass.org/problem-my-pass/stopped-working) does mention "You will be responsible for any travel costs incurred until your new pass arrives. These costs are non-refundable."

 

[richard13]

Dorset council says "The pass must be shown to the driver at the start of every journey in order to prove entitlement to fare reductions as laid down by the Scheme, otherwise the full commercial bus fare is payable."
That is all that is legally required.

Recording the journey: Use the smartcard reader if available and working, or the driver can record it manually as in London.
One council spells that out explicitly, but I can't remember or find it now.

I have found my Devon bus pass works on some Trent Barton buses, but not all - the driver just accepts the card.

 

[overthewater]

Some local authorities enhance the scheme for pensioners, blind and disabled by allowing travel locally on trains.

Those scheme do require some form of payments, and a not free, incase some people were wondering.

 

[RT4038]

Thanks. Would the private operator be obligated to issue a refund? Surely they're financially incentivised to say "The card failed to scan on our readers, the driver was not certain that it's valid at this time/it's being used by the card holder/hasn't been hotlisted/etc."

I couldn't find any guidelines from London Councils about a forgotten card, but this page (https://www.freedompass.org/problem-my-pass/stopped-working) does mention "You will be responsible for any travel costs incurred until your new pass arrives. These costs are non-refundable."

Yes, the bus operator is obliged to issue a refund. If they refuse, take it up with the Concessionary Fare section of the Council in which area you boarded the bus.

 

[Mark L]

Yes, the bus operator is obliged to issue a refund. If they refuse, take it up with the Concessionary Fare section of the Council in which area you boarded the bus.

The Surrey CC website states that no refunds will be issued in respect of a damaged pass. See https://www.surreycc.gov.uk/roads-a...ansport/tickets-and-discounts/disabled-people

 

[Sealink]

How does thr Northern Ireland scheme work compared with the rest of the UK ?

Translink doesn't seem to say what happens if your card is rejected, but do offer a temporary solution for damaged passes.

60+ SmartPass and Senior (65+) SmartPass

To apply for a 60+ SmartPass you must be aged between 60 and 64 and permanently resident in Northern Ireland for a minimum of three months. To apply for a Senior (65+) SmartPass you must be aged 65+ and permanently resident in Northern Ireland for a minimum of three months.

www.nidirect.gov.uk

Northern Ireland:
If your SmartPass is faulty or damaged, you can get a free replacement.

Go to a Translink bus or rail station and exchange your SmartPass at the ticket office for a ‘Faulty SmartPass Receipt’ ticket. This will provide you with free travel on buses and trains for a seven-day period, during which time a new free replacement pass will be issued.

You can use your 60+ SmartPass and Senior (65+) SmartPass on all Translink scheduled services within Northern Ireland.

Senior (65+) SmartPasses are valid on cross border bus and rail services, and can also be used for free public transport journeys taken entirely within the Republic of Ireland on services run by participating operators.

 

[geoffk]

Here, Bracknell, our bus passes are valid for five years, not two. They are combined with our library card and the local e+ discount system as well as the organ donor scheme which presumably have their own requirements. I seem to remember I did get a reminder when it was coming up for renewal but I had to manually do that via the council website or by visiting our library, it was not automatic and as it contains a photo I would not expect it would be.

Five years here in Devon and no renewal procedure - the new pass just arrived in the post. The DCC website states "Older person’s passes are issued for a period of 5 years and are renewed automatically as long as we can see that they have been used in the 12 months preceding the month of expiry. If your pass does not register on the card reader on the bus, we won’t know the pass is being used. Please bear this in mind if you are using your pass exclusively in London or if the pass is broken and is not registering when presented to the card reader." Is a digital pass, rather than a plastic one, an option in some areas?

 

[Buzby]

Scottish passes used to have an expiry date but this was dropped around 10 years ago.

 

[harz99]

TfGM Older and disabled people celebrate end of the ‘Twirlies’ as 9.30am rule for free bus travel lifted​

Older and disabled people are celebrating as the phenomenon of the ‘Twirly’ finally comes to an end on the Bee Network – giving passholders free round-the-clock travel on all buses in Greater Manchester.

The ‘Twirlies’ got their nickname by trying to use their concessionary bus passes before 9.30am, but due to a government restriction, they would be told: “Sorry love, yer twirly” (too early).

However, from this weekend, older and disabled concessionary passholders will no longer have to wait until 9.30am to get on board a bus in Greater Manchester as the time restriction for free travel is permanently lifted on Sunday, 1 March.

https://news.tfgm.com/press-release...ies-as-9-30am-rule-for-free-bus-travel-lifted

Meanwhile in County Durham the before 0930 within County Concessionary fare has just doubled from 50p to £1 single...

 

[Fredtheshred]

£2 in Bham

 

[RT4038]

The Surrey CC website states that no refunds will be issued in respect of a damaged pass. See https://www.surreycc.gov.uk/roads-a...ansport/tickets-and-discounts/disabled-people

There was no mention of the pass being damaged - failure of the bus Ticket Machine to validate the pass does not automatically mean the pass is damaged. The Ticket Machine may well not be working properly. However, if the pass is visibly damaged, or does not work on any Ticket Machine then that is maybe something different.

 

[Dwarfer1979]

Yes, the bus operator is obliged to issue a refund. If they refuse, take it up with the Concessionary Fare section of the Council in which area you boarded the bus.

They aren't obliged, the card didn't scan so there is no way for the driver or company to know it is a valid card so they aren't technically wrong in not accepting it. As a non-local card it is more likely a refund would be offered as it is a regular problem across the country for non-local cards to not scan for reasons outside either the operators or passengers control, my employers normally would in a case like this but I know compared to some operators we are more willing to refund matters like this (having been rejected for a refund by First for something we would have refunded without question). On a local card it is unlikely that a refund would be offered as a non-scanning card is more likely to be put down to an issue with the card (unless there was a ticket machine problem but that would be known as none would be scanning not just one) and the user should go back to the council to get a replacement.

 

[ClivePage]

If the card doesn't scan there is a trivial way for the driver to know that it is valid: just look at the front of it. They all have a standard form with a photo of the user and an expiry date. As these cards never scan on London buses the drivers there always have to look at the pass, if they can be bothered. So in my view there is no circumstance in which a valid pass fails to be valid just because some poorly-maintained scanner on a bus happens to not work properly.