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Sending important letters - signed for or special delivery?

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contrex

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Thank you for that explanation. The letter I sent was related to letters of administration. At the time there was a long back log of getting such letters issued and consequently its "loss" wasnt apparent for some time.
Sounds like the same Ministry. Backlogs always lead to trouble. Haste, catch-up pressure from management, no extra staff allowed, piles of papers everywhere, bigger chances of e.g. something getting picked up with something else and sent for filing or deep store in a salt mine under Cheshire, from where recovery costs an arm and a leg. I once solved the mystery of £100 worth of missing postal orders when I found them in a punched polypocket stapled to the back of some entirely unrelated paperwork. The sender had provided proof of receipt by us (with legible signature) 6 months before, and we had deemed the payment to have been made, but the procedure for doing that was excruciating.
 
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AlbertBeale

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The old 'Registered Letter' or 'Recorded Delivery' is now 'Signed For', and, as you say, goes by ordinary post with proof of sending plus a signature at the other end.

'Special Delivery' is split into 'Special Delivery Next Day 9 AM' and (cheaper) 'Special Delivery Next Day 1 PM'. This is the one that goes by a separate, tracked, stream.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

In fact, Registered wasn't like Recorded - only the latter was renamed Signed For.

Registered was for valuable items, and went in a separate stream; Express was what its name implies. It's these two which were, many years ago, merged into Special Delivery. So there ceased to be separate options for security/insurance and for speed, and you had to pay (more!) for a service which did both of these things, even if you only wanted to pay for one of the "extras".
 

Puffing Devil

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In fact, Registered wasn't like Recorded - only the latter was renamed Signed For.

Registered was for valuable items, and went in a separate stream; Express was what its name implies. It's these two which were, many years ago, merged into Special Delivery. So there ceased to be separate options for security/insurance and for speed, and you had to pay (more!) for a service which did both of these things, even if you only wanted to pay for one of the "extras".

Yes! I had a brief stint mailing from the Midland Bank. Registered post needed to go in a special envelope with a blue cross and was much like the Special Delivery nowadays: handed in to the Post Office then tracked on the entire journey. One quirk - the insurance only kicked in if you use the envelopes sold by the Royal Mail, though you could use your own for tracked items with little loss value.
 

sor

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I'm afraid it's not; roughly one third of all "Signed For" letters are in fact not signed for.

Until we switched to electronic means, we used to send some 400 of these a month from where I work, and we would always check the tracking records about a month after posting. It was fairly consistent that a third of them would not have a signature ( and yes, we did claim the recorded fee back for every single one of those each month! ), with some areas of the country being particularly and consistently poor in this regard.

If I needed proof of delivery, I would personally always use Special Delivery despite the additional cost.

Once, at home, I received a Recorded Delivery ( as it then was ) and the envelope had scrawled all over it "Postie signed for you, thanks!".

I don't think I've ever signed for any "signed for" item since COVID - during the pandemic, RM did officially state that they wouldn't ask for signature (I think on SD they just recorded handing it to you?) but that seems to have persisted.

On some of the tracked 24/48 parcels I've even seen "no signature required" on the label.

You dont have to send letters by royal mail. Many of the courier companies would accept a small packet. They will do the signed for bit properly. Cost a bit more but with the addons may be competitive with Royal Mail.

At significant additional cost, if we're talking about a proper courier and not the bottom feeders who are notorious for throwing parcels onto the roof and the like. In my opinion, RM remains a gold standard for stuff that must get somewhere quickly (and until the govt closed the post offices, more accessible too)
 

Haywain

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I don't think I've ever signed for any "signed for" item since COVID - during the pandemic, RM did officially state that they wouldn't ask for signature (I think on SD they just recorded handing it to you?) but that seems to have persisted.
I've signed for a couple of items recently.
 

zero

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I don't think I've ever signed for any "signed for" item since COVID - during the pandemic, RM did officially state that they wouldn't ask for signature (I think on SD they just recorded handing it to you?) but that seems to have persisted.

On some of the tracked 24/48 parcels I've even seen "no signature required" on the label.

Tracked 24/48 doesn't need a signature.

Even though all covid restrictions in England ended over a year ago, one of my postmen still writes COVID 19 his device and puts Signed For items in my letter box, even when I'm in. The others sometimes ring the bell and ask me to sign, but if they are in a rush (or I'm not in) they will sign it themselves and put it in my letter box.

I do prefer this system to having to schedule redelivery or take a 40 minute walk to pick the item up.
 

AlbertBeale

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I don't think I've ever signed for any "signed for" item since COVID - during the pandemic, RM did officially state that they wouldn't ask for signature (I think on SD they just recorded handing it to you?) but that seems to have persisted.
I've signed for a couple of items recently.
Maybe you just look very healthy!!

At significant additional cost, if we're talking about a proper courier and not the bottom feeders who are notorious for throwing parcels onto the roof and the like. In my opinion, RM remains a gold standard for stuff that must get somewhere quickly (and until the govt closed the post offices, more accessible too)
I'd concur with this judgement.
 

spag23

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Just now my local sub post office refused to sell me "Signed For", offering only a £6.85 Special Delivery. Does anyone know if they were breaching their franchise?
Incidentally I declined.
 

zero

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Just now my local sub post office refused to sell me "Signed For", offering only a £6.85 Special Delivery. Does anyone know if they were breaching their franchise?
Incidentally I declined.
Did they give a reason?
This is why I use stamps - and get the Signed For / SD labels from Crown POs or POs in WH Smith (or ask for them in POs with friendly staff when there are no queues).

Incidentally on 1st August a PO staff member tried to say my commemorative stamps were now invalid, but they were soon put right by their boss (over the phone).
 

Mcr Warrior

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Just now my local sub post office refused to sell me "Signed For", offering only a £6.85 Special Delivery. Does anyone know if they were breaching their franchise?
What were you sending, and where to?
 

AlbertBeale

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Just now my local sub post office refused to sell me "Signed For", offering only a £6.85 Special Delivery. Does anyone know if they were breaching their franchise?
Incidentally I declined.

I'm sure they must have been - unless they asked you what was in the package, and you gave information that meant it had something of value that they're allowed to accept only by SD?

Did they give a reason?
This is why I use stamps - and get the Signed For / SD labels from Crown POs or POs in WH Smith (or ask for them in POs with friendly staff when there are no queues).

Incidentally on 1st August a PO staff member tried to say my commemorative stamps were now invalid, but they were soon put right by their boss (over the phone).

Yes - if you know the correct postage, and keep stamps to hand, and have the labels, you can sort it out yourself and just need to get the certificate of posting with the reference number at the Post Office counter.

I'm actually unsure of the legal basis of Royal Mail refusing to honour any old stamps, given the "contract" at the time they were bought was that they were valid indefinitely until used - I'd be surprised if they could retrospectively change the contract entered into when the stamps were bought. (Rather like the old International Reply Coupons - they're not issued any more in this country, but if you have ones from abroad they still have to cash them in for stamps - even if they're decades old.) If the old stamps were genuinely invalid, then things posted with them on would be treated as completely unpaid; however, from what I'm told, they just try to add a flat rate surcharge, irrespective of the actual postage concerned, to be paid by the recipient when delivering the item.

Incidentally, does anyone know what exactly the information is which is encoded in the dots on the recent stamps?
 

35B

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I'm sure they must have been - unless they asked you what was in the package, and you gave information that meant it had something of value that they're allowed to accept only by SD?



Yes - if you know the correct postage, and keep stamps to hand, and have the labels, you can sort it out yourself and just need to get the certificate of posting with the reference number at the Post Office counter.

I'm actually unsure of the legal basis of Royal Mail refusing to honour any old stamps, given the "contract" at the time they were bought was that they were valid indefinitely until used - I'd be surprised if they could retrospectively change the contract entered into when the stamps were bought. (Rather like the old International Reply Coupons - they're not issued any more in this country, but if you have ones from abroad they still have to cash them in for stamps - even if they're decades old.) If the old stamps were genuinely invalid, then things posted with them on would be treated as completely unpaid; however, from what I'm told, they just try to add a flat rate surcharge, irrespective of the actual postage concerned, to be paid by the recipient when delivering the item.

Incidentally, does anyone know what exactly the information is which is encoded in the dots on the recent stamps?
Royal Mail will exchange old stamps, but use the new barcoded ones to help manage the flow of mail through their system.
 

Fawkes Cat

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Incidentally, does anyone know what exactly the information is which is encoded in the dots on the recent stamps?
No, but I assume it's a unique identifier for that stamp. So as with barcoded train tickets, when scanned the fact that the stamp has been used can be logged, and any repeat use detected. And as with barcoded train tickets there's no need to physically clip (train tickets)/postmark (Royal Mail) to show that it's been used. So no more need to have physical postmarking machines - which in turn means less to go wrong, and less chance of damaging fragile post.

It also means an end to letters headed 'date as postmark' in that there won't be a postmark any more, although I suppose there may still be franked mail.
 

35B

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No, but I assume it's a unique identifier for that stamp. So as with barcoded train tickets, when scanned the fact that the stamp has been used can be logged, and any repeat use detected. And as with barcoded train tickets there's no need to physically clip (train tickets)/postmark (Royal Mail) to show that it's been used. So no more need to have physical postmarking machines - which in turn means less to go wrong, and less chance of damaging fragile post.

It also means an end to letters headed 'date as postmark' in that there won't be a postmark any more, although I suppose there may still be franked mail.
It also offers potential to sell stamps as blanks, and then give them value based on whatever is being posted - and then check back to the originator if the item is larger and/or heavier than it was declared to be.
 

zero

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you gave information that meant it had something of value that they're allowed to accept only by SD?
Is there anything that can only be accepted by SD? A £70 item can be sent by signed for, but you only get £50 if they lose it. If you send cash by signed for, you get no compensation for loss but you do get 8 stamps for the failure to obtain delivery confirmation.

If the old stamps were genuinely invalid, then things posted with them on would be treated as completely unpaid; however, from what I'm told, they just try to add a flat rate surcharge, irrespective of the actual postage concerned, to be paid by the recipient when delivering the item.

https://www.royalmail.com/receiving-mail/pay-a-fee says that for letters and large letters, you will be surcharged £1.10 for using a non-barcoded stamp**, but £1.50 for insufficient postage and £2.50 for no postage.

The fee for small parcels is the same regardless of what stamps, if any, are used, while for medium parcels you have to pay £1.50 plus the unpaid amount.

So if the recipient is happy to pay £1.50, then sticking a barcoded 1p stamp on a 251g-750g large letter appears to be cheaper than paying £1.85 to £3.30 at a post office/online.

It's not clear what happens if you stick on a non-barcoded 1p - will it be regarded as no postage or insufficient. It seems illogical to only charge £1.10, when using a valid 1p stamp would incur a £1.50 charge.

**Let's ignore that plenty of non-barcoded stamps are still valid

No, but I assume it's a unique identifier for that stamp. So as with barcoded train tickets, when scanned the fact that the stamp has been used can be logged, and any repeat use detected. And as with barcoded train tickets there's no need to physically clip (train tickets)/postmark (Royal Mail) to show that it's been used. So no more need to have physical postmarking machines - which in turn means less to go wrong, and less chance of damaging fragile post.

It also means an end to letters headed 'date as postmark' in that there won't be a postmark any more, although I suppose there may still be franked mail.
That is the theory, but my stamp dealer is selling unfranked barcoded stamps for amounts that make it worth the time to sort them. People also buy franked barcoded stamps, and they are still buying franked invalid stamps in bulk too.

As an experiment, I received a large letter with an unfranked barcoded 1st class stamp. I took out the item and resealed the envelope. I have then brought the envelope to several places in Scotland and northern England and posted it back to myself, and it has come back to me 5 times. On the 5th delivery the postman drew a line through the stamp. (Note that the postman would not have recognised that particular envelope because I buy from the same seller frequently and the packages are always in the same style.)
 

spag23

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What were you sending, and where to?
It was a 44g standard envelope containing a passport addressed to the Passport Office. Not time critical.
I can fully understand the PO staff recommending special Delivery, but not their refusing to sell me Signed For. A different local sub post office recommended SD;presumably they have little faith in their downstream colleagues! But they DID eventually let me buy Signed For.
Meantime I've raised a complaint about the first franchise.
 

Fawkes Cat

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That is the theory, but my stamp dealer is selling unfranked barcoded stamps for amounts that make it worth the time to sort them. People also buy franked barcoded stamps, and they are still buying franked invalid stamps in bulk too.

As an experiment, I received a large letter with an unfranked barcoded 1st class stamp. I took out the item and resealed the envelope. I have then brought the envelope to several places in Scotland and northern England and posted it back to myself, and it has come back to me 5 times. On the 5th delivery the postman drew a line through the stamp. (Note that the postman would not have recognised that particular envelope because I buy from the same seller frequently and the packages are always in the same style.)
So presumably the stamp scanning kit hasn't yet been fully rolled out. Just as not everyone checking tickets on trains yet has a scanner for barcoded tickets, although it's heading that way.
 

MotCO

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Royal Mail will exchange old stamps,
I thought that there was a cut-off date for this, but the form is still available on line, and I've just found some more stamps :oops:
 

johncrossley

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Why are they still using post as the default method of communication when the correspondence is so vital? As mentioned above, even Special Delivery is not guaranteed. It only gives you your money back. That is little comfort if you get a criminal record. They really need to join the 21st century and use secure online messaging (obviously not regular email). Sending out vast number of letters is also expensive for the taxpayer.
 

Fawkes Cat

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They really need to join the 21st century and use secure online messaging (obviously not regular email).
Is there are a way to do secure online messaging to someone who doesn't know they're going to get something? i.e. can you securely send an online message if all you've got is the recipient's email address?

The thing is, if you need to start setting up the secure communication channel by sending an email 'Dear F. Dodger, we need to send you an important message about action that we may be taking against you, so please follow these instructions' it seems to me that quite a lot of people will decline to follow the instructions. And you end up posting the letter to them anyhow.
 

johncrossley

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Is there are a way to do secure online messaging to someone who doesn't know they're going to get something? i.e. can you securely send an online message if all you've got is the recipient's email address?

The thing is, if you need to start setting up the secure communication channel by sending an email 'Dear F. Dodger, we need to send you an important message about action that we may be taking against you, so please follow these instructions' it seems to me that quite a lot of people will decline to follow the instructions. And you end up posting the letter to them anyhow.

The inspector gives you instructions on how to set up an account with a code that uniquely identifies you. So those who want to engage with the process and get it over and done with quickly and easily can do so.
 

35B

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I thought that there was a cut-off date for this, but the form is still available on line, and I've just found some more stamps :oops:
The cut-off was for use of non-barcoded stamps; I've not heard of a deadline for exchanges - and have heard suggestions that there can't be, because they're redeemable for cash.
 

Mcr Warrior

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The cut-off was for use of non-barcoded stamps; I've not heard of a deadline for exchanges - and have heard suggestions that there can't be, because they're redeemable for cash.
Are they? Might once have been possible back in the distant past, but don't think this has been possible anytime recently.
 

66701GBRF

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Signed for or Special Delivery becomes pretty pointless when the Postman signs it himself as happened to me a couple of months ago when receiving foreign currency.
 

zero

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Signed for or Special Delivery becomes pretty pointless when the Postman signs it himself as happened to me a couple of months ago when receiving foreign currency.
RM delivers to an address, not a person, so it doesn't matter who signs.
 

MotCO

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RM delivers to an address, not a person, so it doesn't matter who signs.
The problem arises when the intended recipient claims he/she did not receive the letter or package. I assume the signee, i.e .the postman, would be liable.
 

LAX54

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Signed for is just that, it is signed for upon arrival, but that can be anybody, and not the person or department on the address.
 

Hadders

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Neither 'Signed For' or 'Special Delivery' will guarantee that the person signing for the item is the person it is addressed to, but it should be signed by the person at the address who receives it.

During covid the process was relaxed but the person making the delivery should not be signing for the item - this is akin the someone markingtheir own homework!
 

Deafdoggie

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Special Delivery is £6.85 (or £11.22 posted on a Friday for delivery on a Saturday)
Signed For costs £2.60 for a standard sized letter

If all you want is a signature to confirm the letter has got there then I'd always go for 'Signed For'. Special Delivery guarantees delivery by 1pm and offers compensation but that doesn't really apply to a letter to a train company as the letter itself has no value.

Staff at the Post Office will try and 'upsell' Special Delivery. It is a good service when you need to guarantee something arrives next day, but often next day guaranteed delivery isn't needed, you simply want confirmation that it has arrived and 'Signed For' is fine for that.

Compensation can also be useful but can be a bit of a red-herring. Sending a letter to a TOC won't really get you any compensation in the event it gets lost because there's no value to the letter.
They offer, for an additional fee, consequential loss. So you can then claim for any consequences from the delay. So, if your payment offer went up as you missed the deadline because the response was delivered late, consequently loss insurance would cover it.
 
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