Semaphore signalling

[Bald Rick]

In 2005, I had an interesting conversation with the signaller at Eccles Road, on the Ely to Norwich line. He said that signallers' salaries were by far the biggest cost - equipment maintenance was largely 'patch and mend' where necessary. On that line, 40 signallers were required to cover the 9 boxes. At an average of £25K each, annual salary costs were £1 million. Network Rail had estimated the cost of resignalling at £150 million, so in terms of cost savings the scheme was going to take a long time to pay for itself! Of course, the modular signalling eventually installed in 2012 might have worked out cheaper - it was certainly meant to be.

There were 9 signal boxes and Poplar Farm Gate box, which needed over 50 signallers to operate between them, including all the reliefs. Average cost per person was nearly double what you suggested. Resignalling cost was about a quarter of what you suggest. The financial equation was rather different.

There were some (rather well publicised) reliability issues to start with, with hindsight being the first widescale application of MCB-OD, that should have been expected. However in my opinion it is more reliable (and safer) than it was previously. No boxes shut because of staff shortage (happened quite a bit). No signallers putting gates across an approaching train (happened more than once). No broken block instruments, or failed telegraph wires. No broken locking, with the nearest locking fitter a day away. No signallers getting a shock, literally, when lighting struck the points rodding. And so on.

 

[Colin1501]

There were 9 signal boxes and Poplar Farm Gate box, which needed over 50 signallers to operate between them, including all the reliefs. Average cost per person was nearly double what you suggested. Resignalling cost was about a quarter of what you suggest. The financial equation was rather different.

There were some (rather well publicised) reliability issues to start with, with hindsight being the first widescale application of MCB-OD, that should have been expected. However in my opinion it is more reliable (and safer) than it was previously. No boxes shut because of staff shortage (happened quite a bit). No signallers putting gates across an approaching train (happened more than once). No broken block instruments, or failed telegraph wires. No broken locking, with the nearest locking fitter a day away. No signallers getting a shock, literally, when lighting struck the points rodding. And so on.

Apologies for any inaccuracies in the figures. I'm only quoting what I was told.

 

[LowLevel]

There were 9 signal boxes and Poplar Farm Gate box, which needed over 50 signallers to operate between them, including all the reliefs. Average cost per person was nearly double what you suggested. Resignalling cost was about a quarter of what you suggest. The financial equation was rather different.

There were some (rather well publicised) reliability issues to start with, with hindsight being the first widescale application of MCB-OD, that should have been expected. However in my opinion it is more reliable (and safer) than it was previously. No boxes shut because of staff shortage (happened quite a bit). No signallers putting gates across an approaching train (happened more than once). No broken block instruments, or failed telegraph wires. No broken locking, with the nearest locking fitter a day away. No signallers getting a shock, literally, when lighting struck the points rodding. And so on.

On the other hand the Thetford Workstation has well publicised issues with long axle counter sections, a huge number of user worked crossings to manage and the automation causing the signaller to zone out and struggle to maintain focus and this has translated into actual accidents as well as near misses.

I agree pushing wooden gates out across those roads with lorries and tractors must have been a nightmare at places like Shippea Hill and Lakenheath.

All in all the benefits outweigh the negatives but it is no secret that signaller workload management on some of these new rural workstations have come into sharp focus.

 

[Greybeard33]

As well as semaphores there cant be many lines with traditional token instruments. As mentioned on another thread Harrogae York changes to tokenless block next month.

I believe Rainford Jn to Kirkby still has traditional token instruments as well as semaphores. The system can be seen in operation in Don Coffey's Wakefield to Knowsley binliner video on YouTube.

Also the little-used Grimsby Light Railway, as seen in the recent Railmart Barnetby to Immingham video.

 

[K.o.R]

Blyth and Tyne still has a few semaphores, unless they've been upgraded in the past couple of years.

 

[The Bear]

Are there Semaphore signals around Grange over Sands?

Yes Grange-over-Sands still has semaphores, as does most of the boxes on the Furness & Cumbrian Coast.

Burneside Higher Crossing on the Windermere branch also has semaphores.

 

[Llanigraham]

Still quite a lot in West country on mainline down to Penzance.

The Marches, listed earlier are mostly lower quadrants

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Nov 2020 ==

And to add, they all use good old block instruments, even at Onibury, which is all coloured lights

 

[Scotrail84]

Whitby branch?

Is there any left on the Durham coast route?

 

[Whistler40145]

Has the triangular Junction at Norton on Tees still got Semaphore Signals?

 

[Scotrail84]

Has the triangular Junction at Norton on Tees still got Semaphore Signals?

This image dates from 2012 unfortunately.

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[MadMac]

Has the triangular Junction at Norton on Tees still got Semaphore Signals?

I believe it does, but not for much longer.

 

[meepmeep]

Pitlochry and Aviemore are now colour lights along with carrbridge.

I believe greenloaning between dunblane and gleneagles has the last co-acting semaphore signal in Scotland, easily seen from the road bridge, I can’t think of any manual distant signals in scotland, not sure if there are any left unfortunately.

Cupar to leuchars is semaphore. Carnoustie, Arbroath, montrose (1 i think) Inverkeilor, Laurencekirk, craigo, Carmont and Stonehaven all semaphores. Newtonhill box is now abolished and under control of Aberdeen SC I believe.

Inverness to Aberdeen - line through Forres is now colour light after it's re-doubling/straightening/new station.

 

[MadMac]

Inverness to Aberdeen - line through Forres is now colour light after it's re-doubling/straightening/new station.

Also Aberdeen-Inverurie.

 

[ChrisRS]

Has the triangular Junction at Norton on Tees still got Semaphore Signals?

It certainly has for now.

The whole area is currently in the process of being resignalled with colour lights, expected to be controlled and operated from York ROC by early February 2021.

 

[fishwomp]

West of Carmarthen is still in the main semaphore signalled[...]

This isn't the case these days - colour light everywhere that actually has signals.

West of Carmarthen, you'd have those signalled from Carmarthen itself, Whitland and finally Clarbeston Road box.

There used to be a semaphore (within the last 5 years) coming off the P&T branch at Whitland, but that's colour now. There are no other signals on that branch - although there might be a few solid aluminium boards with a painted yellow semaphore on for the purpose of the token system, the rest would be stop boards requiring the tablet to proceed, or a stop and horn-blow at level crossings..

On the Milford Haven branch and at Clarbeston Road itself, is colour light, and Fishguard Harbour branch has probably no signals beyond Clarbeston Road.

 

[Scotrail84]

Is there still a signal box at Ferryhill on the ECML along with some shunting disk signals?

Eastfields at Peterborough as well?

 

[Class 170101]

Is there still a signal box at Ferryhill on the ECML along with some shunting disk signals?

Eastfields at Peterborough as well?

Eastfields with semaphore was still there pre-lockdown.

On the other hand the Thetford Workstation has well publicised issues with long axle counter sections, a huge number of user worked crossings to manage and the automation causing the signaller to zone out and struggle to maintain focus and this has translated into actual accidents as well as near misses.

I agree pushing wooden gates out across those roads with lorries and tractors must have been a nightmare at places like Shippea Hill and Lakenheath.

All in all the benefits outweigh the negatives but it is no secret that signaller workload management on some of these new rural workstations have come into sharp focus.

Did Thetford Workstation have ARS installed? Would that ease signallers workload?

 

[Kneedown]

How many lower quadrant are still in use .

Away from the Western region, there is still an old Midland Railway lower quadrant signal in use at Ketton in Rutland.

 

[LowLevel]

Eastfields with semaphore was still there pre-lockdown.



Did Thetford Workstation have ARS installed? Would that ease signallers workload?

Thetford workstation is largely automated with obstacle detector level crossings etc. The signaller doesn't do much with the trains in normal working. Bar some freight traffic at Brandon and Eccles Road, occasional moves to the Mid Norfolk Railway at Wymondham. and the odd special turnback at Thetford most trains are just run automatically by the signalling system from one end of it to the other.

The problem isn't the number of trains - it was that the signaller often had too little to do with them and zoned out. That combined with the large number of level crossings, heavy rural farm traffic etc using them and long axle counter sections contributed to several near misses and a serious accident at Hockham Road when the signaller authorised use of the level crossings with trains approaching.

Signaller workload is an ongoing investigation and there is a greater understanding that removing nearly all routine functions from the signaller but still expecting them to function effectively can be as bad as overloading them with manual actions.

 

[High Dyke]

There is a big programme ongoing at the moment to replace failing structures with horrible modern galvanised edifices.

As in this replacement at Heckington. It was formerly a Great Northern concrete post

 

[Tom Quinne]

This isn't the case these days - colour light everywhere that actually has signals.

West of Carmarthen, you'd have those signalled from Carmarthen itself, Whitland and finally Clarbeston Road box.

There used to be a semaphore (within the last 5 years) coming off the P&T branch at Whitland, but that's colour now. There are no other signals on that branch - although there might be a few solid aluminium boards with a painted yellow semaphore on for the purpose of the token system, the rest would be stop boards requiring the tablet to proceed, or a stop and horn-blow at level crossings..

On the Milford Haven branch and at Clarbeston Road itself, is colour light, and Fishguard Harbour branch has probably no signals beyond Clarbeston Road.

Im thinking of Pembrey and Kidwelly, are they east or west of Carmarthen ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Nov 2020 ==

Eastfields with semaphore was still there pre-lockdown.



Did Thetford Workstation have ARS installed? Would that ease signallers workload?

ARS usually increases workload not decreases.

 

[fishwomp]

Im thinking of Pembrey and Kidwelly, are they east or west of Carmarthen ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Nov 2020 ==

They are east - and yes, still semaphore there. Interesting that Llanelli got modern signalling and automated object detection crossing, but lower traffic Ferryside remains untouched.

 

[karlos]

From my neck of the woods I think Penyffordd has the only semaphores in North East Wales since part of the coast line was resignalled in 2018. In North West Wales Llandudno Station and Deganwy still has them, along with the boxes on Anglesey.

Moving into west Cheshire, I've seen them recently at Ellesmere Port and Helsby. Frodsham went colour light after they upgraded the Halton Curve.

 

[JBuchananGB]

There's a few semaphores along from Burscough Bridge to Wigan, including at Parbold.

 

[crosscity]

I'm hoping Droitwich Spa doesn't lose them in the near future as I'd like to get some photos there next spring.

 

[R G NOW.]

Motor worked signals have been in existence for a very long time. Also electro-pneumatic or hydraulic versions using switches, slide handles etc. You don't have to work them using a wire from a lever. Gloucester panel used to work a semaphore distant by motor. You can still work motorised signals using a lever for interlocking purposes, you just turn the lever into a giant switch.

Was this NJ9 at Norton Junction? I understand it was then connected to a ROC at Saltley in Birmingham, but has now been removed and replaced with an ILS Dorman signal with a position 4 junction indicator for the route towards Bristol or Gloucester. I assume this was done to do away with Norton Junction Signal Box in the future..

 

[rower40]

Eastfields with semaphore was still there pre-lockdown.



Did Thetford Workstation have ARS installed? Would that ease signallers workload?

Thetford Workstation does have ARS, but it doesn't actually set any routes! It sets fake routes to warn the relevant level crossing equpment as to whether the approaching train is a stopping or a non-stop train, since this alters which strike-in point to use to trigger the crossing sequence.
When I asked the operations staff as to why they didn't want ARS actually setting the real routes, (since we'd set up the ARS hardware and data anyway) I was told that, under semaphore signalling, it would be an odd week if any of that line's signallers ever pulled any of the black levers. I.e. the routes (in TCB signalling) can be left set and in "auto" mode all the time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Nov 2020 ==

Im thinking of Pembrey and Kidwelly, are they east or west of Carmarthen ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Nov 2020 ==



ARS usually increases workload not decreases.

Tell that to the Leeds North-west workstation signallers at York ROC. When it was resignalled to an NX panel in Leeds PSB, it was double-manned. Now ARS sets commonly more than 90% of the routes.

 

[Tom Quinne]

Thetford Workstation does have ARS, but it doesn't actually set any routes! It sets fake routes to warn the relevant level crossing equpment as to whether the approaching train is a stopping or a non-stop train, since this alters which strike-in point to use to trigger the crossing sequence.
When I asked the operations staff as to why they didn't want ARS actually setting the real routes, (since we'd set up the ARS hardware and data anyway) I was told that, under semaphore signalling, it would be an odd week if any of that line's signallers ever pulled any of the black levers. I.e. the routes (in TCB signalling) can be left set and in "auto" mode all the time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Nov 2020 ==


Tell that to the Leeds North-west workstation signallers at York ROC. When it was resignalled to an NX panel in Leeds PSB, it was double-manned. Now ARS sets commonly more than 90% of the routes.

From experience it’s a pain in the arse, I joined to actually work my panel not watch a computer program play train often badly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Nov 2020 ==

Thetford Workstation does have ARS, but it doesn't actually set any routes! It sets fake routes to warn the relevant level crossing equpment as to whether the approaching train is a stopping or a non-stop train, since this alters which strike-in point to use to trigger the crossing sequence.
When I asked the operations staff as to why they didn't want ARS actually setting the real routes, (since we'd set up the ARS hardware and data anyway) I was told that, under semaphore signalling, it would be an odd week if any of that line's signallers ever pulled any of the black levers. I.e. the routes (in TCB signalling) can be left set and in "auto" mode all the time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Nov 2020 ==


Tell that to the Leeds North-west workstation signallers at York ROC. When it was resignalled to an NX panel in Leeds PSB, it was double-manned. Now ARS sets commonly more than 90% of the routes.

Even the new boss wants signallers to activity engage with the Workstation, not let ARS run the show.

 

[Joba]

Blyth and Tyne still has a few semaphores, unless they've been upgraded in the past couple of years.

Tyne Valley line still has quite a few of them, at Prudhoe and Haydon Bridge stations for example. (As of 3 weeks ago anyway).

 

[infobleep]

Although not a passenger running line, I was always surprised that semaphore signals existed on the sidings near the carriage shed around Wilesdon Junction. It's where I think Virgin, and now Avanti stored some of their rolling stock.i think the sleeper rolling stock went there too.

I found it odd because all around them was coloured light signalling. I think there was 2 or maybe 3 semaphore signals.