Selling plusbus tickets on train

[aleph_0]

I was travelling on East Coast from Kings Cross to Leeds a few months back, and when my ticket was inspected, I asked if I could purchase a plusbus ticket for Leeds. I was refused, being told that he wasn't able to sell such tickets on the train.

I understood the implication was he couldn't, rather than he wasn't permitted to, I stated I could probably look up the destination code, but he genuinely believed that it could only be purchased at a ticket office, at which point I politely agreed.

However, this question has been bugging me. I'm almost certain that he would be able to sell such a ticket. Am I right? In which case, is this EC policy, or incorrect training? (the guard was otherwise lovely, and I don't doubt the sincerity of his statement) The other possibility I can think of is that since I was asking for a railcard discounted ticket, the guard didn't wish to sell a discounted ticket on the train, but this would again seem silly, and I'm sure EC trust their guards sufficiently to not get upset about seeing a railcard-discounted ticket being sold.

I'm guessing there is no obligation on guards to sell onward tickets (at least when travelling to a station with an open ticket office), although it is good customer service?

Edit: I should add, I managed to buy the ticket in Leeds fine, and I certainly didn't think it was worth contacting EC about, this is just to satisfy my curiosity

 

[scotsman]

They've changed the way PlusBus tickets are sold, they used to be a destination but are now a ticket in their own right

 

[aleph_0]

They've changed the way PlusBus tickets are sold, they used to be a destination but are now a ticket in their own right

Yes, I understand this, so it would be sold with origin Leeds, destination Leeds+Bus, which I assumed could be done on any machine.

 

[snail]

I've bought Manchester+Bus several times from TPE conductors as the TVMs aren't set up to sell them if I'm buying on the day.

 

[brillopad]

Yes, I understand this, so it would be sold with origin Leeds, destination Leeds+Bus, which I assumed could be done on any machine.

Before I got a bus pass that's how I used to buy them.

 

[Greenback]

I have certainly bought Plusbus tickets on board ATW trains.

 

[MarkyMarkD]

Surely the far bigger drawback of PlusBus, at least from my experience, is the fact that you cannot buy PlusBus on the bus?

If you live a long way from a station - at the far end of a PlusBus area, for example - then unless you plan in advance you cannot use PlusBus to start your journey.

It would not take a lot of nous to resolve this. I presume the fear is that if bus companies sold the PlusBus ticket, it would be cheaper than the normal bus fare (as it is for me) and there would be little to stop people buying PlusBus and NOT continuing their journey by train.

But there's an incredibly simple solution to that - at least for manned stations - which is to charge a penal amount for PlusBus sold on the bus, and then rebate the excess against a rail ticket.

E.g. if PlusBus is meant to be £2.90, charge £10 on the bus, then rebate £7.10 against a rail ticket at the station.

Simples!

But those in charge of PlusBus don't seem to have the imagination to fix this problem.

 

[jon0844]

A bus company could charge the plusBUS fee for that area on the bus (it will always be the same), and keep the ticket as a voucher to be redeemed as a discount off your rial ticket with plusBUS at a ticket office.

Or, even just charge for a normal bus ticket and allow the receipt to be used for a discount when you buy the rail ticket!

It definitely isn't hard to solve this problem, but I expect the industry considers the hassle of processing discounts (and how the money is divided up when a single bus operator 'got it all') to make it not worthwhile. Hence a lot of people probably don't use plusBUS.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I have a vague recollection of Thameslink offering a similar thing for it's 'north of London' stations, swapping a bus ticket for Plusbus on arrival at the station and the excess bus cost taken off the fare payable for the train. I might be imagining that though.

 

[island]

My wife has bought a plusbus ticket from an EMT guard before (although she was incorrectly denied a Y-P discount). I suspect the EC guard was either misinformed or didn't especially care.

 

[Qualcuno]

Surely the far bigger drawback of PlusBus, at least from my experience, is the fact that you cannot buy PlusBus on the bus?

From the point of view of a bus company, I imagine one of the main advantages is that their bus driver doesn't have to sell the ticket. They move the ticket selling responsibilities from their one person, who's meant to be driving the bus, to the railway who have far more infrastructure - ticket offices, ticket machines, online ordering.

 

[Ferret]

My wife has bought a plusbus ticket from an EMT guard before (although she was incorrectly denied a Y-P discount). I suspect the EC guard was either misinformed or didn't especially care.

Sorry Island, I'm gonna have to stick up for the Guard concerned. There is an ongoing software issue on the Avantix machines at the minute that causes a print error when you try to issue a Plus Bus ticket. It's a known issue but at the moment we're instructed not to even try to sell them on board the train. I'm sure it will be sorted in due course though...

 

[snail]

Surely the far bigger drawback of PlusBus, at least from my experience, is the fact that you cannot buy PlusBus on the bus?

But you need a rail ticket to be able to buy PlusBus. By your logic that means you would also have to buy the rail ticket on the bus, to stop people getting discounts they are not entitled to.

If you are buying your rail ticket in advance then it's relatively easy to add PlusBus at the same time.

 

[aleph_0]

Sorry Island, I'm gonna have to stick up for the Guard concerned. There is an ongoing software issue on the Avantix machines at the minute that causes a print error when you try to issue a Plus Bus ticket. It's a known issue but at the moment we're instructed not to even try to sell them on board the train. I'm sure it will be sorted in due course though...

Ah, thanks, this makes sense (and hence why I emphasized the fact that the guard seemed genuine). Although if this is a global problem, that does leave an annoying problem where a passenger travelling between unmanned stations is unable to buy the ticket they require (maybe there is a fallback of a handwritten ticket, which one would then have fun getting bus drivers to accept). If the software fault is only currently affecting some intercity ToCs, then it shouldn't matter, since one can buy on arrival.

In general, train staff are great, on the return journey the guard and another passenger went out of their way to convince a ticketless passenger to do the sensible thing.

I suppose this is either a case where a little knowledge is a dangerous thing (hence why I just asked the guard once, and then assumed my knowledge must be incorrect).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Surely the far bigger drawback of PlusBus, at least from my experience, is the fact that you cannot buy PlusBus on the bus?

If you live a long way from a station - at the far end of a PlusBus area, for example - then unless you plan in advance you cannot use PlusBus to start your journey.

Isn't there a simpler argument here. I assumed the idea of plusbus is mainly to encourage rail travellers to also use the buses in the area, usually giving them a discount for doing so, generating new custom. Someone who is planning to use the bus to get to the station probably has less of a choice, and so the bus company is in a position to sell them the normal tickets, and there is no incentive for the bus company to try to sell them a plusbus ticket, from which they would receive less revenue. So although there are technical solutions possible, there is no incentive to even think about implementing them?

 

[Aictos]

Sorry Island, I'm gonna have to stick up for the Guard concerned. There is an ongoing software issue on the Avantix machines at the minute that causes a print error when you try to issue a Plus Bus ticket. It's a known issue but at the moment we're instructed not to even try to sell them on board the train. I'm sure it will be sorted in due course though...

Question for you Ferret and other users of the Avantix machines, is there more then one version of the software in use or do the machines all use the same version of software?

I ask this because I find it strange that a RPI for FCC can easily do a journey enquiry on their Advantix with various ticket discounts but a Guard for EC cannot do the same, why?

 

[CarterUSM]

Question for you Ferret and other users of the Avantix machines, is there more then one version of the software in use or do the machines all use the same version of software?

I ask this because I find it strange that a RPI for FCC can easily do a journey enquiry on their Advantix with various ticket discounts but a Guard for EC cannot do the same, why?

I have a funny feeling East Coast don't use avantix, I might be wrong though.

 

[district]

Showed my guard the printout from Avantix and he remarked that he has never heard of it before. The ticket is much cheaper than my dayrider in Ashford!

 

[WelshBluebird]

I bought one onboard an ATW service only a couple of weeks ago.
Although he didn't give me the YP discount on the plusbus part (I didn't bother arguing it as it isn't that much difference, and the guard was quite busy, and we were near Cardiff anyway).

 

[anthony263]

I have certainly bought Plusbus tickets on board ATW trains.

Lucky you, 8 out of ten times the conducter hasnt been able to issue me 1 and told me to purchase a ticket at the barrier (Thats is the station even has 1)

 

[MarkyMarkD]

Isn't there a simpler argument here. I assumed the idea of plusbus is mainly to encourage rail travellers to also use the buses in the area, usually giving them a discount for doing so, generating new custom. Someone who is planning to use the bus to get to the station probably has less of a choice, and so the bus company is in a position to sell them the normal tickets, and there is no incentive for the bus company to try to sell them a plusbus ticket, from which they would receive less revenue. So although there are technical solutions possible, there is no incentive to even think about implementing them?

I think that's similiar to Beeching argument which was demonstrably wrong.

In other words, Beeching abandoned branch lines because they weren't profitable, but that meant that people who would have used branch and then main lines, simply stayed in their cars.

That applies hugely to the PlusBus situation.

If people are deterred from using the PlusBus add-on, chances are they'll often drive all the way to their destination.

 

[philjo]

I had a different issue the other day. I was booking EC advance singles via the EC website - I will be travelling with my Dad.
If I select the plusBus option for Leeds, it adds 2 Leeds plusbus tickets to the order.
As my Dad has his senior bus pass, I don't need to purchase one for him as he can travel free on the buses. They should design the online order so you can specify how many plusbus add-ons you want to purchase (obviously up to the number of rail tickets bought!)
I'll buy mine at the station.

 

[snail]

If people are deterred from using the PlusBus add-on, chances are they'll often drive all the way to their destination.

I don't understand how you intend this to be administered. It's an add-on to train travel - how can you show to the bus driver that you intend to buy a rail ticket? Without that it becomes just another day rover ticket.

 

[jon0844]

It's fine if you're going somewhere and want to travel by bus at the destination for a bit, before returning to get the train home.

However, it would also work quite well for someone in any town to get to the station by bus, and back home after (i.e. have the plusBUS at their origin station, not the destination).

Currently there's no way to do that, and given (out of London at least) there's the option to buy a return bus ticket for little more than a single, there's no point paying for a single and then plusBUS for getting home as it would cost more than just getting the return. No doubt the bus operators prefer that option to keep ALL the revenue than sharing it out.

When we finally get smartcards that work on all transport systems around the country, you won't necessarily need plusBUS as it will just be worked out automatically as a discount on the train ticket, if your card has a bus journey (or journeys) recorded the same day.

I've got an annual plusBUS for my origin station, but I won't be renewing it next year as I hope by then Uno will have a new ticketing system that will enable me to use a prepay smartcard system. My annual season works out more than paying the daily rate on account of the amount of days I don't use the bus (walk, get a lift, don't travel due to holiday/weekends). It's more about convenience, which a smartcard would make even easier.

 

[scotsman]

Yes, I understand this, so it would be sold with origin Leeds, destination Leeds+Bus, which I assumed could be done on any machine.

No it's not. I believe it comes under Rangers and Rovers in Avantix now

 

[Tomonthetrain]

PlusBus is fun in WMPTE land. For £2.50 I was able to do 3 buses from my home to the named station, travel to where I was going and back, use another ticket internal WMPTE area then use my plusbus on the bus from there back home. Plus it was £1.30 cheaper than a nBus 1 Day (multiple operator ticket with same area restrictions)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There again it was Only because I brought the tickets the previous day

 

[MarkyMarkD]

I don't understand how you intend this to be administered. It's an add-on to train travel - how can you show to the bus driver that you intend to buy a rail ticket? Without that it becomes just another day rover ticket.

I already suggested how. Charge a penal amount for the PlusBus add-on when purchased on the bus e.g. £10 - an amount which means nobody will possibly purchase it unless they are a genuine PlusBus bus+train user. Then rebate the excess over the "real" PlusBus add-on amount, as a discount off a train fare. (Ideally available through automated ticket machines as well as at the ticket office as well as on the train).

I don't see that is unworkable at all.

Because of the switch from through PlusBus tickets to separate ones, there is already nothing to stop passengers selling the PlusBus bit to their friends if they wanted to! My proposal doesn't increase the risk of fraud at all.

 

[spacehopper]

I can count on one hand the number of times I've sold a plusbus ticket.

Avantix is AFAIK set up differently for each TOC. Some wont require a circuit number or headcode when logging on. Some will have function to issue Penalty Fares and other sundries. Not sure if any TOC has enabled the calculator function?

Bottom line is if you know what you are doing and remember to do the plusbus destination separately no harder than issuing any other ticket.

I know some guards don't like to sell tickets for onward travel especially with a railcard discount as this will show up on the download. It might be obvious to the guard why they've sold it but not to a manager. (Big Brother is watching you ). Then again some aren't interested in the commission...

It is well advertised on stations, on line and in leaflets. The uptake in some areas will be high. (Car parking charges / shortages, differing modal shift) and low in other areas- (PTE tickets, less local train trips).

What would put me off using them is acceptance on buses. Looks like a rail ticket is a rail ticket. Although often they are better value than a First Day or Mega Rider. Plus price of plusbus seems to remain pretty constant.

 

[TEW]

Multi-modal tickets are fairly common nowadays, and I've never had a problem using a train ticket on a bus.

 

[Ferret]

I bought one onboard an ATW service only a couple of weeks ago.
Although he didn't give me the YP discount on the plusbus part (I didn't bother arguing it as it isn't that much difference, and the guard was quite busy, and we were near Cardiff anyway).

Oooh that's interesting! Maybe it's been fixed then! It was about a month ago I last tried to do one for a customer, with no success.

To answer the questions about Avantix software, there are different versions of it available I'm sure, but who uses what I don't know. Generally speaking, it's a wonderful piece of kit, and it makes the job far easier than it used to be in the days of fares manuals and paper timetables!

 

[Aictos]

I have a funny feeling East Coast don't use avantix, I might be wrong though.

They've been using it for a fair few years now after using fare manuals and paper timetables since BR days!