Selling Booze on a Train

[465fan]

Guys,

I have a question which some of you may be able to answer, how do railway companies, heritage railways and railtour operators sell alcohol on their trains per licencing?

I had heard that if a train operated between two Counties, or between two Council / unitary authorities, you didn't need a licence on account of the fact that it might not be possible to satisfy both sides?

Anyone who can shed any light, that would be grand!

NDH.

 

[transmanche]

I have a question which some of you may be able to answer, how do railway companies, heritage railways and railtour operators sell alcohol on their trains per licencing?

AFAIUI, they don't need a licence...

Edit. Section 173, Licensing Act 2003: "An activity is not a licensable activity if it is carried on—(a)aboard an aircraft, hovercraft or railway vehicle engaged on a journey..."

 

[broadgage]

Yes, as above a licence is not required to sell alcohol on board a moving train, ship or aircraft.
"Moving" seems to be taken as "capable of moving, and does move regulary" rather than actually being in motion at the time of the sale of alcohol.

Selling alcohol on board a train that is stopped at a station seems to be accepted, but buying an old railway coach and putting it on a vacant site and effectively running it as a public house would not be acceptable, unless a licence was obtained.

 

[tsr]

I'm afraid I'm not going to look it up myself right now, so can transmanche, broadgage or anyone else actually define "journey"?

 

[eastdyke]

I'm afraid I'm not going to look it up myself right now, so can transmanche, broadgage or anyone else actually define "journey"?

You do not need to define 'journey'.

Specifically (extracts from section 173 of the Licensing Act 2003):

(1)An activity is not a licensable activity if it is carried on:

(a)aboard an aircraft, hovercraft or railway vehicle engaged on a journey,

etc. etc.


(2)For the purposes of subsection (1) the period during which an aircraft, hovercraft, railway vehicle or vessel is engaged on a journey includes:

(a)any period ending with its departure when preparations are being made for the journey, and

(b)any period after its arrival at its destination when it continues to be occupied by those (or any of those) who made the journey (or any part of it).

 

[Mvann]

You don't need a licence to sell alcohol on a train that is in service. If the train is not in service you need a licence. Also licenced hours don't apply on a train in service.

 

[steamybrian]

I agree with all the above.
A journey means a train that is moving, about to be moved or capable of moving which includes a train standing in a station.
As someone said an old carriage "mounted" on a short length of track would not count because it could not undertake a journey.

 

[transmanche]

Yes, as above a licence is not required to sell alcohol on board a moving train, ship or aircraft.

One of the changes introduced in the 2003 Act is that boats, ships etc now do need to have a licence to sell alcohol - the exception being vessels engaged on an international journey.

 

[wintonian]

Yes, as above a licence is not required to sell alcohol on board a moving train, ship or aircraft.
"Moving" seems to be taken as "capable of moving, and does move regulary" rather than actually being in motion at the time of the sale of alcohol.

Selling alcohol on board a train that is stopped at a station seems to be accepted, but buying an old railway coach and putting it on a vacant site and effectively running it as a public house would not be acceptable, unless a licence was obtained.

Some years ago (perhaps just before the act came in) I was refused service for alcohol on a SWT 442, until it had departed the station it was currently calling at, due to them only being allowed to sell alcohol whilst in stopped at a station.

S. 158 of theThe Licensing Act 2003 has this to say:

Vehicles and trains

156
Prohibition on sale of alcohol on moving vehicles(1)A person commits an offence under this section if he sells by retail alcohol on or from a vehicle at a time when the vehicle is not permanently or temporarily parked.
(2)A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months or to a fine not exceeding £20,000, or to both.
(3)In proceedings against a person for an offence under this section, it is a defence that—
(a)his act was due to a mistake, or to reliance on information given to him, or to an act or omission by another person, or to some other cause beyond his control, and
(b)he took all reasonable precautions and exercised all due diligence to avoid committing the offence.

157
Power to prohibit sale of alcohol on trains(1)A magistrates' court [F1acting for the local justice area] may make an order prohibiting the sale of alcohol, during such period as may be specified, on any railway vehicle—
(a)at such station or stations as may be specified, being stations in that area, or
(b)travelling between such stations as may be specified, at least one of which is in that area.
(2)A magistrates' court may make an order under this section only on the application of a senior police officer.
(3)A magistrates' court may not make such an order unless it is satisfied that the order is necessary to prevent disorder.
(4)Where an order is made under this section, the responsible senior police officer must, forthwith, serve a copy of the order on the train operator (or each train operator) affected by the order.
(5)A person commits an offence if he knowingly—
(a)sells or attempts to sell alcohol in contravention of an order under this section, or
(b)allows the sale of alcohol in contravention of such an order.
(6)A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months or to a fine not exceeding £20,000, or to both.
(7)In this section—
“railway vehicle” has the meaning given by section 83 of the Railways Act 1993;
“responsible senior police officer”, in relation to an order under this section, means the senior police officer who applied for the order or, if the chief officer of police of the force in question has designated another senior police officer for the purpose, that other officer;
“senior police officer” means a police officer of, or above, the rank of inspector;
“specified” means specified in the order under this section;
“station” has the meaning given by section 83 of the Railways Act 1993 (c. 43); and
“train operator” means a person authorised by a licence under section 8 of that Act to operate railway assets (within the meaning of section 6 of that Act).

 

[steamybrian]

Some years ago (perhaps just before the act came in) I was refused service for alcohol on a SWT 442, until it had departed the station it was currently calling at, due to them only being allowed to sell alcohol whilst in stopped at a station.

An Act Of Parliament for selling booze on a train exempt for licence has always been there.!!!
The recent revision was only an update on the previous law.

 

[Mvann]

Some years ago (perhaps just before the act came in) I was refused service for alcohol on a SWT 442, until it had departed the station it was currently calling at, due to them only being allowed to sell alcohol whilst in stopped at a station.

S. 158 of theThe Licensing Act 2003 has this to say:

I think that might be company policy rather than to do with licensing laws. The laws for trains hasn't actually changed much over the years.

 

[transmanche]

S. 158 of theThe Licensing Act 2003[/URL] has this to say:

Erm, you actually quoted s156 and s157. Section 156 is nothing to do with railways and section 157 is about the power of a magistrate to declare a train to be 'dry'. (Section 158 is about making false statements

The relevant section of the Act is s173 (which I linked above).

 

[tsr]

You do not need to define 'journey'.

Specifically (extracts from section 173 of the Licensing Act 2003):

Thank you. That basically answers my question.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

The arrangements which apply in Scotland fall under Section 126 of the Licensing (Scotland) Act 2005.
Its provisions are different, but essentially similar to those in England and Wales, in that moving vehicles are not captured by the requirements to hold a Premises Licence.

 

[dk1]

Before all day opening of pubs it was great to be able to get a drink on the train during the afternoon. We used to go on holiday via Gatwick on the 14.32 from Norwich so by the time we got to London my parents didn't have to have beer break.

 

[deltic1989]

I'm afraid I'm not going to look it up myself right now, so can transmanche, broadgage or anyone else actually define "journey"?

You do not need to define 'journey'.

Specifically (extracts from section 173 of the Licensing Act 2003):

(1)An activity is not a licensable activity if it is carried on:

(a)aboard an aircraft, hovercraft or railway vehicle engaged on a journey,

etc. etc.


(2)For the purposes of subsection (1) the period during which an aircraft, hovercraft, railway vehicle or vessel is engaged on a journey includes:

(a)any period ending with its departure when preparations are being made for the journey, and

(b)any period after its arrival at its destination when it continues to be occupied by those (or any of those) who made the journey (or any part of it).

This could introduce a technicality though. Say for example I was to buy an old coach and convert it into a bar. I could then park it in a siding connected to the network and, as long as that coach undertakes a journey at some point during the day that would not need a licence. Am I correct or am I fireing wide of the mark?

 

[Greenback]

This could introduce a technicality though. Say for example I was to buy an old coach and convert it into a bar. I could then park it in a siding connected to the network and, as long as that coach undertakes a journey at some point during the day that would not need a licence. Am I correct or am I fireing wide of the mark?

Well wide of the mark! The coach in question wouldn't be able to make any sort of 'journey' without a huge amount of permissions, safety cases and goodness knows what else.

It would be far easier just to leave it and get a premises licence!

 

[eastdyke]

Presumably though heritage lines 'dining specials' are allowed a good time for 'after dinner' drinks?

 

[chuckles1066]

One of the changes introduced in the 2003 Act is that boats, ships etc now do need to have a licence to sell alcohol - the exception being vessels engaged on an international journey.

Off at a tangent but you can't buy a can of Red Bull in the bar of a UK-registered P&O ferry bound for Calais stationary in Dover harbour because the product is illegal in France.

 

[route:oxford]

So, without starting a new thread...

Is it the same rules for a sexual entertainment licence?

The local lap dancing club has been closed in Oxford "Think of the Children!", it was a few minutes walk from the station (I've never been inside).

If the club was operated out of a few refurbished Mk3 buffet cars/restaurant cars and shuttled all night between Oxford & Bicester - would that mean it didn't need an entertainment licence or an alcohol licence?

Maybe a refurbed sleeper car for private dance booths?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Presumably though heritage lines 'dining specials' are allowed a good time for 'after dinner' drinks?

The consumption of alcohol isn't a "licensable activity" (nor is dispensing alcohol without charge). It is the 'sale of alcohol by retail' that requires a Premises Licence and which may benefit from one of the very few exemptions, such as sales on moving vehicles.
So the sale of alcohol during a reasonable period after the end of the journey may be permitted, the much longer time allowed for consuming the drinks will be immaterial.

Say for example I was to buy an old coach and convert it into a bar. I could then park it in a siding . . . . .

It would be far easier just to leave it and get a premises licence!

Indeed!

Is it the same rules for a sexual entertainment licence?

. . . . would that mean it didn't need an entertainment licence or an alcohol licence?

No, they're captured by different legislation. The sale of alcohol and 'regulated entertainment' (such as music) are permitted under provisions of the Licensing Act 2003 (E&W) or Licensing (Scotland) Act 2005, whereas adult entertainment such as lap-dancing is covered under the old Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1982 which, by the way, was the legislation which had authorised musical entertanment until the 2003 Act was, er, enacted.

 

[Mvann]

It's actually the sale of alcohol that's licenced. I believe wholesalers need a premises licence as well as retailers. I also believe someone with a personal licence is also needed.

 

[scotsman]

It's actually the sale of alcohol that's licenced. I believe wholesalers need a premises licence as well as retailers. I also believe someone with a personal licence is also needed.

Correct. A premises licence with a named premises manager - this person must be a personal licence holder.

 

[route:oxford]

No, they're captured by different legislation. The sale of alcohol and 'regulated entertainment' (such as music) are permitted under provisions of the Licensing Act 2003 (E&W) or Licensing (Scotland) Act 2005, whereas adult entertainment such as lap-dancing is covered under the old Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1982 which, by the way, was the legislation which had authorised musical entertanment until the 2003 Act was, er, enacted.

So, being a rail vehicle, such a licence would be obtained where the vehicle is based? But would it need to be licenced for every town it passed through or stopped at?

Eg, if my "ahem" adult entertainment coaches were stabled in Reading during the day, would I need to have them licenced in Oxford for evening embarkations?

 

[Howardh]

I notice there are a number of "folk" trains from Piccadilly which have, er, folk bands playing. Do they need a licence for live music in any way shape or form? And, if so, which local authority does it come under?

 

[richw]

Off at a tangent but you can't buy a can of Red Bull in the bar of a UK-registered P&O ferry bound for Calais stationary in Dover harbour because the product is illegal in France.

Also cant buy alcohol within 30 mins of departure or arrival.

This could introduce a technicality though. Say for example I was to buy an old coach and convert it into a bar. I could then park it in a siding connected to the network and, as long as that coach undertakes a journey at some point during the day that would not need a licence. Am I correct or am I fireing wide of the mark?

What about if you have a siding which is long enough to be able to shuttle from one end of the siding to the other is that then classed as a journey, or does a journey need to be a minimum distance. i.e. I have a 400m siding, i move my coach from one end to the other with the punters on board, have they undertaken a journey?

I notice there are a number of "folk" trains from Piccadilly which have, er, folk bands playing. Do they need a licence for live music in any way shape or form? And, if so, which local authority does it come under?

FGW also operated jazz trains on the cornwall/ devon branch lines which i understand were very popular.

 

[transmanche]

I notice there are a number of "folk" trains from Piccadilly which have, er, folk bands playing. Do they need a licence for live music in any way shape or form? And, if so, which local authority does it come under?

S 173 of the Licensing Act 2003 applies - so no.

 

[johnnychips]

Also cant buy alcohol within 30 mins of departure or arrival

That doesn't leave long. I thought the journey was 90 minutes.

 

[richw]

That doesn't leave long. I thought the journey was 90 minutes.

That is correct, so you see ridiculous large queues in the shop/ bar if anyone wants alcohol in the middle third.

 

[alastair]

I am sure I am not the only one who remembers the very popular evening "beer train" which ran on Sundays on the Ffestiniog Railway,leaving Porthmadog around 1830. Until not that long ago,most of N Wales was "dry" on Sundays,and this was the only way you could legally buy a drink.