Self-Determination and Human Rights Legislations

[Jack in England]

[Mod Note - Split from this thread.]

I had to rugby tackle a person today who was trying to jump in front of a train from the platform and all I could think about was what if this person tries to have me for assault.....dammed if you do dammed if you don't!!

I feel for everyone involved in this case but can we all please take "some" responsibility for our actions we're all grown ups...when it suits!!

 

[sevenhills]

I had to rugby tackle a person today who was trying to jump in front of a train from the platform and all I could think about was what if this person tries to have me for assault.....dammed if you do dammed if you don't!!

Also you are taking away his human rights. I work with children with special needs, and on occasion we have been told that we should not stop children from running away, even though they they are at risk of death, due to not having the mental capacity to learn road sense.

 

[DarloRich]

Also you are taking away his human rights.

No you are not. You have to be a public body to fall under the auspices of the Human Rights Legislation. What article of the Human Rights Convention would you be contravening in any event?

I work with children with special needs, and on occasion we have been told that we should not stop children from running away, even though they they are at risk of death, due to not having the mental capacity to learn road sense.

I find that hard to believe. On what basis would that advice be given? On what legislation? You have an overriding duty of care to ensure that vulnerable people are safe.

 

[sevenhills]

No you are not. You have to be a public body to fall under the auspices of the Human Rights Legislation. What article of the Human Rights Convention would you be contravening in any event?

I find that hard to believe. On what basis would that advice be given? On what legislation? You have an overriding duty of care to ensure that vulnerable people are safe.

Everyone has the right of self determination. Suicide is an “act of self-determination”.

There is no reason for me to not post the truth; it does conflict with other advice, such as holding their hand. We have had a few cases were such children have climbed the school fence.

 

[transmanche]

Also you are taking away his human rights.

No you're not. As previously said, only 'the state' can violate someone's human rights.

Everyone has the right of self determination. Suicide is an “act of self-determination”.

The ECHR does not mention "self-determination" at all.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I find that hard to believe. On what basis would that advice be given? On what legislation? You have an overriding duty of care to ensure that vulnerable people are safe.

You'd be surprised. I am a trained first aider and often teach the stuff too, and our official guidelines (from the Royal Lifesaving Society) are that we cannot give people medication or inject them with an epipen etc etc, even if they would otherwise die. We can "help them", but we cannot do it for them. That is the official line. (However if I was in an actual situation where doing nothing would mean the person dies, I would ignore the rulebook and do anything I could to help save that person). Hell, we have even been warned about being very very careful if we ever have to carry out any first aid just incase the person then decides to turn around and sue us (for things like cracked ribs in the case of CPR, or for possible paralysis in cases where you have had to move someone who has a spinal injury).

 

[ainsworth74]

Hell, we have even been warned about being very very careful if we ever have to carry out any first aid just incase the person then decides to turn around and sue us (for things like cracked ribs in the case of CPR, or for possible paralysis in cases where you have had to move someone who has a spinal injury).

That's a change. When I did a first aid course about six years ago we were told that as long as what you were doing was a reasonable attempt to save/preserve life then you'd be covered legally. So if you cracked some ribs doing CPR no worries, trying to perform open heart surgery on the other hand...

 

[WelshBluebird]

That's a change. When I did a first aid course about six years ago we were told that as long as what you were doing was a reasonable attempt to save/preserve life then you'd be covered legally. So if you cracked some ribs doing CPR no worries, trying to perform open heart surgery on the other hand...

As what I do and teach is lifesaving rather than specifically a first aid course, our "role" is more to have the skills to help out if we happen to pass a situation in the street, rather than actually have any responsibility for anything. So that is probably why we wouldn't be covered legally. Realistically the advise is probably overly cautious and a judge would (hopefully) throw any lawsuit of that nature out right away.

A couple of my friends are in St Johns Ambulance, and as they have a responsibility to assist when required, the legal stance is different I believe.

But the whole not giving medication / epipens etc etc is something that is emphasised an awful lot. We are not trained to do it, and we are not qualified to do so. But as I said before, in a situation, if the person would die without me doing anything, then I would just give them the medication and to hell with the consequences. I would not watch someone die because of red tape. Which is why I find it so annoying that I have to teach differently to how I would actually act.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Hell, we have even been warned about being very very careful if we ever have to carry out any first aid just incase the person then decides to turn around and sue us (for things like cracked ribs in the case of CPR, or for possible paralysis in cases where you have had to move someone who has a spinal injury).

Ribs are cracked all the time during CPR. You try not to, by using a good hand position but it's inevitable in a long resus someone will crack the ribs. No one's been sued for it yet.

There are no good samaritan laws in this country, and even a healthcare professional only has a duty to act in certain circumstances. Someone volunteering for St John will not have a duty to act unless they are at a contracted duty.

 

[richw]

You'd be surprised. I am a trained first aider and often teach the stuff too, and our official guidelines (from the Royal Lifesaving Society) are that we cannot give people medication or inject them with an epipen etc etc, even if they would otherwise die. We can "help them", but we cannot do it for them. That is the official line).

I was under the impression it is illegal to give someone medication unless you had a relevant dispenser qualification. I'm sure when I did my first aid course in 2007, we were told by the trainer it is illegal to give someone any form of medication. I'm pretty sure I was told by the course provider there was insurance in place to cover all trained personnel in case something went wrong.

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk 2

 

[WelshBluebird]

I was under the impression it is illegal to give someone medication unless you had a relevant dispenser qualification. I'm sure when I did my first aid course in 2007, we were told by the trainer it is illegal to give someone any form of medication. I'm pretty sure I was told by the course provider there was insurance in place to cover all trained personnel in case something went wrong.

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I am not really sure if its to do with the law or not, all I know is that we are taught (and told to teach) that we should not do it.
But again, I would not watch someone die just because of red tape.

Ribs are cracked all the time during CPR. You try not to, by using a good hand position but it's inevitable in a long resus someone will crack the ribs. No one's been sued for it yet.

There are no good samaritan laws in this country, and even a healthcare professional only has a duty to act in certain circumstances. Someone volunteering for St John will not have a duty to act unless they are at a contracted duty.

To be fair, whilst I did mention cracked ribs during CPR, I was more thinking about more serious cases. Things like moving something with a spinal injury because of other dangers / to be able to do CPR (so you are saving their life, but possibly causing serious paralysis).

And just because no one has been sued yet, it doesn't mean someone hasn't tried to put in a lawsuit, or won't try in the future! Although I'd hope such a suit would get laughed out of court!

In terms of St Johns stuff, I was referring to when they are "on duty" so to speak. Of course when out and about in the daily lives they have no more responsibility than anyone else, but when they are on duty at an event or whatever then they do have that responsibility, and so are also covered by St Johns in regards to any insurance issues that may arrise.

As lifesaver (basically a person who just happens to know some first aid incase I come across a situation), then I don't think I have similar insurance (I only do when involved with any Royal Lifesaving Society activities).

 

[jon0844]

That's a change. When I did a first aid course about six years ago we were told that as long as what you were doing was a reasonable attempt to save/preserve life then you'd be covered legally. So if you cracked some ribs doing CPR no worries, trying to perform open heart surgery on the other hand...

It isn't a change. It's a myth. Someone might threaten to sue (they'd be rather mad of course) but it wouldn't get to court. In fact, last time I checked into this there hadn't been a single reported case.

People who use the above as an excuse basically don't want to get involved, and find an excuse that they feel comfortable with (to reduce the guilt of potentially letting someone die when you could have helped).

Don't get me wrong, nobody is forced to administer first aid even if they've had basic training - but don't use the above excuse.. just say 'I was too scared'.

 

[WelshBluebird]

It isn't a change. It's a myth. Someone might threaten to sue (they'd be rather mad of course) but it wouldn't get to court. In fact, last time I checked into this there hadn't been a single reported case.

People who use the above as an excuse basically don't want to get involved, and find an excuse that they feel comfortable with (to reduce the guilt of potentially letting someone die when you could have helped).

Don't get me wrong, nobody is forced to administer first aid even if they've had basic training - but don't use the above excuse.. just say 'I was too scared'.

Not using it as an excuse at all, it is just what we have been told.
I would at least hope any such suit would be thrown out before it got to court, and it wouldn't stop me doing whatever I could to try to save someones life.
But it is something we have been told to just be mindful of. And as I also said, my point was more about other things anyway.

 

[jon0844]

Not using it as an excuse at all, it is just what we have been told.

You might not think that way, but perhaps the person responsible for giving the advice probably does!

 

[Andyjs247]

I was under the impression it is illegal to give someone medication unless you had a relevant dispenser qualification. I'm sure when I did my first aid course in 2007, we were told by the trainer it is illegal to give someone any form of medication. I'm pretty sure I was told by the course provider there was insurance in place to cover all trained personnel in case something went wrong.

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First Aid is one of those things where regular retraining is required. It also differs according to the level of training. I hold a current First Aid At Work certificate (from 2011) which does allow me to administer an epi-pen and also aspirin (in the case of suspected cardiac arrest). That is the only medication I can administer. The situation may change in future in line with best practice. BTW I also hold a current paediatric first aid certificate; that didn't include training to administer an epi-pen for example.

 

[jon0844]

My first aid has expired - but I know that I was advised not to give medication.

Sadly I've forgotten enough of my first aid to consider my partial knowledge to be probably more of a hindrance than anything else.

 

[LE Greys]

As I see it, you have to be alive to sue someone (well, I suppose their family might, but then they would be suing someone who had failed to save a life, which is far worse than being sued IMO) so as I see it, the primary responsibility ought to be to keep people alive. If someone dies, that is a far worse outcome than someone alive with a minor injury, even a major recoverable injury perhaps.

I've backed calls for a 'Good Samaritan Law' in this country before, just to clarify things.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

also aspirin (in the case of suspected cardiac arrest).

I hope not!