Self charging EVs

[Bletchleyite]

But…..unless they can definitely get home on the charge they have then they are likely going to plug it in for a top up, and you can’t get them out of bed to swap.

On one night, yes. I suspect most hotel stays (bar things like motorway Travelodges) are for more than one night. Two is probably most common.

 

[Meerkat]

On one night, yes. I suspect most hotel stays (bar things like motorway Travelodges) are for more than one night. Two is probably most common.

For holiday hotels you would have pre changeover night though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For holiday hotels you would have pre changeover night though.

Yes, though if chargers were low in number a prudent person would do it during the week. Most likely in that kind of place you'll just be pootling round locally during the holiday and for most use cases 10 miles or so off the range won't matter - just a cold day can do that!

There's a danger with EV discussions that we go down a route similar to the "RailUK Standard Minority", i.e. we find very niche cases for which an EV won't work* and use that to discredit the concept and suggest that EVs won't work for the vast majority of drivers and journeys, which they almost certainly will. Those people who do sit in one of those niches should probably not buy an EV yet, but they are niches, not the majority or anywhere near it.

* There are also niche cases where a petrol vehicle isn't a good choice, e.g. if you live in the wilds of Scotland miles from the nearest petrol station but can charge an EV at home.

 

[Noddy]

s

How can it not be range anxiety to be worried that you won’t be able to complete your journey? You are worried there won’t be a charger available.

Range anxiety=not being able to complete your journey because your car has a small battery and doesn’t have enough range to travel between charging hubs/where you are going so there is significant potential that may end up dead at the side of the road.

Charger anxiety=your car has plenty of range to make it to the hub you want to stop at (or the destination) but when you get there you find that there are cars (probably taxis filling to 100%) taking all the available chargers. So you either have to wait ages or make an additional stop and/or take a detour/another route, potentially having to use a much more expensive charging hub. For example you want to stop at Leeds Skelton Lakes, have lunch and charge at 65p kWh (Ionity) but it’s full so you have to make an extra stop at Wetherby at 79p kWh (Gridserve).

These days range anxiety is largely limited to chademo cars with small batteries. Going back to my original point, I don’t believe there are any new EVs on the market that result in this because virtually everything these days is CCS and there are so many CCS charging hubs available. However all long distance EV journeys have the potential to be disrupted by full charging hubs, its nothing to do with range it’s to do with being inconvenienced.

 

[AM9]

For holiday hotels you would have pre changeover night though.

Ideally, hotels and other locations where users are unlikey to be sitting waiting until their car is charged, a diversity arrangement would better serve users at a lower cost than simply addng more an more chargers. Such an arrangement would allow users to declare how many kWh are required and by when, after which the limited feed would be divvied up autonomously. Costs would be allocated depending the urgency requested. When ythe system was fully committed, lower charging rates could be offered at with reduced prices.

 

[renegademaster]

Not every hotel guest needs to fully charge theri vehicle from empty to full every night.

Hotel guests wont want to stay up to 3am to wait until the charger frees up

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Oct 2024 ==

won't work for the vast majority of drivers and journeys, which they almost certainly will.

The problem being a typical person does one of the "edge cases" a few times a year , and having to depend on rentals for your holiday will quickly erode price savings

 

[DelW]

Yes, that pretty much sums up my experience. I needed to replace my ICE vehicle last year and opted for a PHEV based on 80% of my journeys would fit into my 30-40 mile EV range which I can charge from home on 7.5kw pod on overnight tariff for around 10p/Kwh.

The downsides are high initial capital outlay and where this has exceeded £40K then road fund licence is around £600 per annum where a full EV would have been £0.
Charging away from home at commercial prices gives little advantage in my experience over the price of unleaded, purely on costs & benefits and ignoring any environmental improvements.
Home charging needed me to spend around another £1K for the 7.5 Kwh capability.
My PHEV allows me to switch manually between EV mode and ICE should I want to, enabling me to save battery for the urban part of any longer journeys.
I'm not sure what tax advantages exist or once existed, per quote from earlier poster?

That's exactly the way it works for me too. I bought a PHEV when I retired in 2020, as I could predict making a lot more short local trips that my existing diesel was ill suited to. I did keep it below £40k, and I didn't bother with a home charger as there was already a suitably located 13A outlet and the 4 hour charge time has never been a problem. I'm used to managing the choice of power source during longer journeys to maximise mpg and to have electric charge available for areas where it's most beneficial.

Re the tax, AIUI this is the "benefit in kind" assessment of the taxable income that a company provided vehicle is equivalent to. PHEVs were assessed at a lower tax rate, but there was no check on how suitable they were for the intended use, nor monitoring of how they were used. So some people got PHEVs for the lower tax, but used them effectively just as petrol cars.

 

[Meerkat]

s


Range anxiety=not being able to complete your journey because your car has a small battery and doesn’t have enough range to travel between charging hubs/where you are going so there is significant potential that may end up dead at the side of the road.

Charger anxiety=your car has plenty of range to make it to the hub you want to stop at (or the destination) but when you get there you find that there are cars (probably taxis filling to 100%) taking all the available chargers. So you either have to wait ages or make an additional stop and/or take a detour/another route, potentially having to use a much more expensive charging hub. For example you want to stop at Leeds Skelton Lakes, have lunch and charge at 65p kWh (Ionity) but it’s full so you have to make an extra stop at Wetherby at 79p kWh (Gridserve).

These days range anxiety is largely limited to chademo cars with small batteries. Going back to my original point, I don’t believe there are any new EVs on the market that result in this because virtually everything these days is CCS and there are so many CCS charging hubs available. However all long distance EV journeys have the potential to be disrupted by full charging hubs, its nothing to do with range it’s to do with being inconvenienced.

Charger anxiety = range anxiety.
Other issue I have is that last time I looked (a while back TBF) small cars don’t have the range. I only need a small car, but do long journeys. Not a problem with petrol.

 

[edwin_m]

But…..unless they can definitely get home on the charge they have then they are likely going to plug it in for a top up, and you can’t get them out of bed to swap.

A hotel would have lots of low current overnight chargers, plus perhaps a few faster ones available at extra cost.

 

[Meerkat]

A hotel would have lots of low current overnight chargers, plus perhaps a few faster ones available at extra cost.

One for every space? Plenty of hotels struggle for enough parking and a lot of it is in a layout not conducive to charger installation.

 

[InkyScrolls]

I drive a self charging Kia Niro and the electric motor certainly isn't "just a beefed up starter motor"!
I can drive it without the petrol engine running at all, even at 70mph on the motorway if conditions are suitable and at other times it augments the petrol engine, so I can easily average well over 60mpg. Certainly the hills of Mid Wales assist in the charging regime!
Just this weekend I drove from here to Penzance and back and averaged 64mpg.

I averaged that in my diesel-only 2009 Skoda, from Yorkshire to Penzance and back! If that's considered 'good' for a hybrid then one wonders what the point is.

 

[edwin_m]

One for every space? Plenty of hotels struggle for enough parking and a lot of it is in a layout not conducive to charger installation.

I guess that's up to the hotel and whether they thought they could make money from it, either by charging for the charging (as it were) or by attracting guests from other hotels without such facilities.

 

[E27007]

I averaged that in my diesel-only 2009 Skoda, from Yorkshire to Penzance and back! If that's considered 'good' for a hybrid then one wonders what the point is.

The high-mpg of a diesel engine is well known due to the greater density of energy of diesel fuel compared to petrol, and the greater efficiency of the high-compression ratio diesel engine over petrol. the point of it, to the great discomfort of a number of engineers and executives who served gaol sentences in the USA, is the petrol hybrid will meet the emissions standards legally without resorting to criminal measures, your Skoda will have computer code in the ECU to cheat during the emissions standards tests, when not being tested your Skoda will produce exhaust pollution levels five to ten times greater than the legal limits, "VW dieselgate" the biggest scandal in car-manufacturing history.

Dieselgate

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem being a typical person does one of the "edge cases" a few times a year

No, they don't. The edge cases where an EV is absolutely unsuitable are few and far between. Cases where the plan has to be a little different from now aren't such edge cases as they don't prevent use of an EV. The hotel example given isn't such a case - just charge your EV some time during the week, it needn't be the last night.

And the edge case of "people with a bladder capable of a 5 hour journey non stop" just need to be made, by way of EVs, to pack it in, as it's dangerous for other road users.

 

[Meerkat]

And the edge case of "people with a bladder capable of a 5 hour journey non stop" just need to be made, by way of EVs, to pack it in, as it's dangerous for other road users.

I can empty my bladder considerably quicker than a car can recharge!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can empty my bladder considerably quicker than a car can recharge!

By the time you've parked, walked into the services building, used the loo and walked back, you'd get a 10-20% topup on a fast charger.

But that wasn't really my point. My point was that if EVs force people to take more breaks when driving, that's a benefit. Too many people drive tired and take insufficient breaks, usually with the arrogant view they don't need to when in fact they do.

 

[Noddy]

Charger anxiety = range anxiety.
Other issue I have is that last time I looked (a while back TBF) small cars don’t have the range. I only need a small car, but do long journeys. Not a problem with petrol.

As an EV driver I can absolutely say they are not!

Many small cars are coming on the market with 200+ mile ranges now. For example the Renault 5 has a range of 255miles. You won’t get range anxiety because there will always be plenty of charging hubs you can easily get to. When it’s predecessor the Zoe was launched in 2013 it had a range of 130 miles and there were far far fewer places to charge meaning you were heavily restricted on where you could go without the risk of ending up dead at the side of the road. Thats range anxiety.

 

[Robin Edwards]

That's exactly the way it works for me too. I bought a PHEV when I retired in 2020, as I could predict making a lot more short local trips that my existing diesel was ill suited to. I did keep it below £40k, and I didn't bother with a home charger as there was already a suitably located 13A outlet and the 4 hour charge time has never been a problem. I'm used to managing the choice of power source during longer journeys to maximise mpg and to have electric charge available for areas where it's most beneficial.

Re the tax, AIUI this is the "benefit in kind" assessment of the taxable income that a company provided vehicle is equivalent to. PHEVs were assessed at a lower tax rate, but there was no check on how suitable they were for the intended use, nor monitoring of how they were used. So some people got PHEVs for the lower tax, but used them effectively just as petrol cars.

Got it - thanks for clarifying. Now I'm retired so I am unaware of the current tax rates for vehicles gained as a benefit. When employed, I refused a company car as the taxation was onerous, and took the cash in-lieu instead.

 

[Meerkat]

By the time you've parked, walked into the services building, used the loo and walked back, you'd get a 10-20% topup on a fast charger.

In five minutes! 10% won’t be enough.

Many small cars are coming on the market with 200+ mile ranges now. For example the Renault 5 has a range of 255miles. You won’t get range anxiety because there will always be plenty of charging hubs you can easily get to.

255 catalogue range when new isn’t really enough (for my use). Worrying about finding an available convenient charger in time, that won’t make you late, sounds like range anxiety to me.
Its all surmountable with planning and time, and a high boredom threshold , but travelling takes long enough as it is. It’s possible, but it’s not convenient, and that is the joy of having a car (Yes I know the fundamentalists want car use to be as inconvenient as public transport but that is rather depressing)

 

[Bletchleyite]

255 catalogue range when new isn’t really enough (for my use). Worrying about finding an available convenient charger in time, that won’t make you late, sounds like range anxiety to me.
Its all surmountable with planning and time, and a high boredom threshold , but travelling takes long enough as it is. It’s possible, but it’s not convenient, and that is the joy of having a car (Yes I know the fundamentalists want car use to be as inconvenient as public transport but that is rather depressing)

If you don't plan about 25% slack into your car journey times (unless travelling at extremely quiet times e.g. overnight and having already researched any closures) you might be late. That's one of those things.

Getting places quickly or with reliable timings is not a selling point for a car these days! Convenience certainly is, and there's nothing as convenient as a fully charged car sat on your driveway, no need to even stop for petrol!