Self charging EVs

[edwin_m]

I think it's an urban myth. The Prius only has a battery capacity of 1.2 kw of which 600 watts is available for EV traction due to the control system design. So as new the range on EV would've been less than 2 miles.

Are you confusing capacity (the amount of energy that can be stored, measured in kWh (or joules)) with power (the rate energy can come out, measured in kW)?

 

[Llanigraham]

Which hybrid was that? In my Niro I usually get between low 50s and mid 60s mpg depending on the type of journey and weather conditions. If the circumstances are right I can hit 70mpg.

My 2020 Niro self-charging model has now done 76,000 miles, and even including 15% of that mileage towing a 1100kg caravan, my average fuel consumption shows as 56mpg. In the summer I regularly see upper 60's even here in hilly Mid Wales.

What does strike me, from some of the comments in this this thread, is that there are quite a few people who do not understand the modern hybrids, especially those that have been developed in the last 5 years, when the technology has altered quite substancially, and don't have any real life experience of them.

 

[E27007]

I've never quite understood the economics of buying petrol and then converting it to electricity, at a less-than 100% efficiency no doubt, then using the electricity to drive the car. Why not just drive the car using the petrol?

A valid point, but also consider, petrol consumed by the engine is converted to kinetic energy , the vehicle is moving at speed, say 60 mph, the kinetic energy is considerable, that kinetic energy is lost to non-recoverable heat in the brake pads and brake disks when the vehicle is slowed or brought to a halt by friction brakes. When slowing or braking a hybrid car, regenerative braking can recover / store some of that kinetic energy to electricity for reuse.

 

[AM9]

A valid point, but also consider, petrol consumed by the engine is converted to kinetic energy , the vehicle is moving at speed, say 60 mph, the kinetic energy is considerable, that kinetic energy is lost to non-recoverable heat in the brake pads and brake disks when the vehicle is slowed or brought to a halt by friction brakes. When slowing or braking a hybrid car, regenerative braking can recover / store some of that kinetic energy to electricity for reuse.

The issue is the even the best petrol engines on the road have an efficiency of 20-30%, which means that 70-80% is given off as heat or unburnt hydrocarbons. 60mpg might sound wonderful when judged against pure IC burners, but as the grid's recyclable proportion edges upwards, the most basic form of hybrid drive will be seen as an irrelevance in the decarbonisation or road transport.

 

[dcbwhaley]

My 2020 Niro self-charging model has now done 76,000 miles, and even including 15% of that mileage towing a 1100kg caravan, my average fuel consumption shows as 56mpg. In the summer I regularly see upper 60's even here in hilly Mid Wales.

What does strike me, from some of the comments in this this thread, is that there are quite a few people who do not understand the modern hybrids, especially those that have been developed in the last 5 years, when the technology has altered quite substancially, and don't have any real life experience of them.

Those are all very good points but they don't detract from my original point: that non plugin hybrids are petrol vehicles noit electrical vehicles and should not be advertised as EVs

 

[edwin_m]

Those are all very good points but they don't detract from my original point: that non plugin hybrids are petrol vehicles noit electrical vehicles and should not be advertised as EVs

The same might be said for plug-in hybrids - people have bought them because of the tax advantage but some never plug them in. I believe that incentive has now been removed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The same might be said for plug-in hybrids - people have bought them because of the tax advantage but some never plug them in. I believe that incentive has now been removed.

PHEVs would have more benefit if they were required to have some sort of GPS tracking system which mandated the use of battery power only within city limits, and only allowed a very limited speed "limp home mode" within such areas if the battery wasn't charged. That way you reduce emissions in places where they cause the most harm.

The idea of a car that can do long journeys on petrol but keep fumes out of cities where they cause most harm is a good one, though it was probably an idea that had more value about 10 years ago than now, now BEV ranges are getting good enough not to need that. There isn't the carbon benefit, but the problem of fumes in cities is just as pressing, which is why even EVs charged from coal fired power stations are a good thing (just not as good as charged from nuclear or renewable).

One thing I've noticed about central London is that it's far nicer air to breathe now the ULEZ is in place, and other cities lacking a ULEZ are thick with smoke from old diesels in comparison. I don't doubt a ZEZ will be along fairly soon (though Oxford have done it first in a very small area) and will make it better still.

 

[Llanigraham]

Those are all very good points but they don't detract from my original point: that non plugin hybrids are petrol vehicles noit electrical vehicles and should not be advertised as EVs

You might note that Kia and Hyundai do NOT market their hybrids as EV's. They only use that term for their full EV vehicles.

 

[AM9]

One thing I've noticed about central London is that it's far nicer air to breathe now the ULEZ is in place, and other cities lacking a ULEZ are thick with smoke from old diesels in comparison. I don't doubt a ZEZ will be along fairly soon (though Oxford have done it first in a very small area) and will make it better still.

That will be the final push to sway the minds of most of those that deny climate change and flush most ICVs off the roads.

 

[BananaRepublic]

One of our neighbours purchased a new plug-in hybrid about 18 months ago and installed a home charger.
As most of his mileage consists of of no more than 20 to 40 miles per day, the petrol engine rarely fires up.
Even having done various long distance trips of 200 to 300 miles each way, where the petrol engine is the main power source, he's now of the opinion that the ICE is a waste of space and money.
He say's that it's waste carrying around the dead weight of the engine and its powertrain, not to mention the associated servicing costs.
He intends to go full EV when he next changes his car.

 

[dcbwhaley]

You might note that Kia and Hyundai do NOT market their hybrids as EV's. They only use that term for their full EV vehicles.

Noted. But, properly speaking, they should be described as petrol-electric vehicles just as certain railway locos are called diesel-electrics not hybrids

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Oct 2024 ==

One of our neighbours purchased a new plug-in hybrid about 18 months ago and installed a home charger.
As most of his mileage consists of of no more than 20 to 40 miles per day, the petrol engine rarely fires up.
Even having done various long distance trips of 200 to 300 miles each way, where the petrol engine is the main power source, he's now of the opinion that the ICE is a waste of space and money.
He say's that it's waste carrying around the dead weight of the engine and its powertrain, not to mention the associated servicing costs.
He intends to go full EV when he next changes his car.

Which will have a much greater dead weight od batteries than the dead weight of the hybrid's ICE

 

[Bletchleyite]

Noted. But, properly speaking, they should be described as petrol-electric vehicles just as certain railway locos are called diesel-electrics not hybrids

They would be petrol-electrics if they were simple electric transmission, i.e. no battery aside from the 12V auxiliary one. They're hybrids because of the battery.

The battery fitted hybrid 230s aren't known as DEMUs (the non-hybrid version are, in so much as any exist any more).

 

[Sun Chariot]

But, properly speaking, they should be described as petrol-electric vehicles just as certain railway locos are called diesel-electrics not hybrids

A closer analogy is bi-mode locos (such as the class 73 + 74 electro-diesels, class 88, class 18).
The term diesel electric (diesel hydraulic + diesel mechanical also) refers to transmission type.

 

[Noddy]

Which will have a much greater dead weight od batteries than the dead weight of the hybrid's ICE

It’s not dead weight if the battery is actually being used. Which is generally a requirement for a BEV!

Plus the weight of a BEV and PHEV is generally about the same - below is the weight of the different models of Vauxhall Astra. Note the hatchback BEV actually weighs slightly less than the PHEV...

 

[En]

My 2020 Niro self-charging model has now done 76,000 miles, and even including 15% of that mileage towing a 1100kg caravan, my average fuel consumption shows as 56mpg. In the summer I regularly see upper 60's even here in hilly Mid Wales.

What does strike me, from some of the comments in this this thread, is that there are quite a few people who do not understand the modern hybrids, especially those that have been developed in the last 5 years, when the technology has altered quite substancially, and don't have any real life experience of them.

or that a Series hybrid has no mechancial connection between the engine and wheels

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2024 ==

It’s not dead weight if the battery is actually being used. Which is generally a requirement for a BEV!

Plus the weight of a BEV and PHEV is generally about the same - below is the weight of the different models of Vauxhall Astra. Note the hatchback BEV actually weighs slightly less than the PHEV...

View attachment 167128

they are MAMs not unladen mass but certainl.y demonstrating that for the hybrid and a pure BEV there isn't a lot in it , however i suspect a hybrid with the same battery pack a sa the pure BEV would be heavier so it's a balancing act , total practical range may also come into it although that does depend o nthe size of the fuel tank fitted to the pure ICE vice the hybrid and how the ICE range compares with the battery range .
for wieght saving purporses the previous Astra ( the #k# model in the 2015/6 introuced one - the last GM developed one only had a 45 litre fuel tank - although for the CTDIs that equated to a near 600 mile range under cruising conditions

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2024 ==

One of our neighbours purchased a new plug-in hybrid about 18 months ago and installed a home charger.
As most of his mileage consists of of no more than 20 to 40 miles per day, the petrol engine rarely fires up.
Even having done various long distance trips of 200 to 300 miles each way, where the petrol engine is the main power source, he's now of the opinion that the ICE is a waste of space and money.
He say's that it's waste carrying around the dead weight of the engine and its powertrain, not to mention the associated servicing costs.
He intends to go full EV when he next changes his car.

or that said neighbour was poorly advised when making his purchase / or the use case has changed ( fewer / less frequent longer trips that would be range anxiety inducing in a pure BEV )

 

[Noddy]

they are MAMs not unladen mass but certainl.y demonstrating that for the hybrid and a pure BEV there isn't a lot in it , however i suspect a hybrid with the same battery pack a sa the pure BEV would be heavier so it's a balancing act , total practical range may also come into it although that does depend o nthe size of the fuel tank fitted to the pure ICE vice the hybrid and how the ICE range compares with the battery range .
for wieght saving purporses the previous Astra ( the #k# model in the 2015/6 introuced one - the last GM developed one only had a 45 litre fuel tank - although for the CTDIs that equated to a near 600 mile range under cruising conditions

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2024 ==


or that said neighbour was poorly advised when making his purchase / or the use case has changed ( fewer / less frequent longer trips that would be range anxiety inducing in a pure BEV )

Apologies you are quite correct. I couldn’t find the kerb weights for the Astra but the Peugeot 308 (sister brand (and car?) are as follows:





So there is about a 50-80kg penalty for the pure EV vs the PHEV (in this example).

Regarding your last point about range anxiety in a pure EV, there is no such thing in a modern EV. What there is a charger anxiety-ie whether the charger is free, available and working or if you are going to have to wait for it to become available or faff around finding another nearby one because its broken for some reason (probably cable theft sadly). That is an anxiety, but range anxiety? No.

 

[Meerkat]

Regarding your last point about range anxiety in a pure EV, there is no such thing in a modern EV. What there is a charger anxiety-ie whether the charger is free, available and working or if you are going to have to wait for it to become available or faff around finding another nearby one because its broken for some reason (probably cable theft sadly). That is an anxiety, but range anxiety? No.

That is range anxiety!

 

[En]

That is range anxiety!

exactly such ...
if we define 'range anxiety' as the fear /concern that you will not be able to complete the journey without outside assistance - not being able to 'fill up' is part of that - defining range anxiety on the basis that currently market EVs have sufficient range that a sensible person's likely maximum driving stint will not exhaust the battery is rather artificial

 

[dcbwhaley]

It’s not dead weight if the battery is actually being used. Which is generally a requirement for a BEV!

It is dead weight in that it is a very heavy "fuel tank". If the fuel tank of an ICE weighed 1000lbs you would consider that to be dead weight

 

[Noddy]

That is range anxiety!

Ha, it’s really not! You aren’t worried you don’t have the range to be able to make it to the next charger and going to run out at the side of the road (that’s range anxiety), you’re just worried about the potential that you’re inconvenienced!!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Oct 2024 ==

It is dead weight in that it is a very heavy "fuel tank". If the fuel tank of an ICE weighed 1000lbs you would consider that to be dead weight

No you wouldn’t because if the 1000lbs fuel tank wasn’t in the ICE you would not be able to go anywhere. The larger the battery is, the less cycles it is going to go through and the longer it will last. The point of the dead weight in the PHEV is that often they’re being run entirely on petrol (a number of my colleagues have PHEVs and have never ever plugged them in, therefore the battery is dead weight and possibly a bit knackered depending on how good the BMS), or alternatively (but likely much less common) if it’s run entirely on the battery the engine/geabox/fuel system/exhaust is deadweight.

 

[Meerkat]

Ha, it’s really not! You aren’t worried you don’t have the range to be able to make it to the next charger and going to run out at the side of the road (that’s range anxiety), you’re just worried about the potential that you’re inconvenienced!!

How can it not be range anxiety to be worried that you won’t be able to complete your journey? You are worried there won’t be a charger available.

 

[edwin_m]

How can it not be range anxiety to be worried that you won’t be able to complete your journey? You are worried there won’t be a charger available.

It's a similar anxiety but a different solution. Rather than longer range batteries it needs a more widespread charger network and more confidence there are enough of them to find one that is working and available.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a similar anxiety but a different solution. Rather than longer range batteries it needs a more widespread charger network and more confidence there are enough of them to find one that is working and available.

Longer range batteries are also a solution, as if you don't need to charge then you aren't having to look for a charger. It's all different aspects of the same problem.

 

[edwin_m]

Longer range batteries are also a solution, as if you don't need to charge then you aren't having to look for a charger. It's all different aspects of the same problem.

Yes to some extent, but perhaps if there were more chargers there wouldn't be such a desire for EVs to have extreme long range, with the price and weight that goes with it.

 

[Meerkat]

Yes to some extent, but perhaps if there were more chargers there wouldn't be such a desire for EVs to have extreme long range, with the price and weight that goes with it.

Depends what you use it for. Eg I drive to away football matches - I can’t see there ever being enough chargers that it can charge during the game, and I don’t want to sit around in service stations nor worry about a charger being available (Saturday morning services are very busy).
Will chargers ever be practicable for places like Hotels and entertainment venues ever to have one for every space? I can’t see services ever having enough.

 

[AM9]

Depends what you use it for. Eg I drive to away football matches - I can’t see there ever being enough chargers that it can charge during the game, and I don’t want to sit around in service stations nor worry about a charger being available (Saturday morning services are very busy).
Will chargers ever be practicable for places like Hotels and entertainment venues ever to have one for every space? I can’t see services ever having enough.

Not every hotel guest needs to fully charge theri vehicle from empty to full every night.

 

[edwin_m]

Hotels could include guaranteed charging access as an add-on to a room in much the same way as many do with parking. It could be unlocked by entering a code on the charger and with parking enforcement covering other users blocking the space.

 

[Robin Edwards]

One of our neighbours purchased a new plug-in hybrid about 18 months ago and installed a home charger.
As most of his mileage consists of of no more than 20 to 40 miles per day, the petrol engine rarely fires up.
Even having done various long distance trips of 200 to 300 miles each way, where the petrol engine is the main power source, he's now of the opinion that the ICE is a waste of space and money.
He say's that it's waste carrying around the dead weight of the engine and its powertrain, not to mention the associated servicing costs.
He intends to go full EV when he next changes his car.

Yes, that pretty much sums up my experience. I needed to replace my ICE vehicle last year and opted for a PHEV based on 80% of my journeys would fit into my 30-40 mile EV range which I can charge from home on 7.5kw pod on overnight tariff for around 10p/Kwh.

The downsides are high initial capital outlay and where this has exceeded £40K then road fund licence is around £600 per annum where a full EV would have been £0.
Charging away from home at commercial prices gives little advantage in my experience over the price of unleaded, purely on costs & benefits and ignoring any environmental improvements.
Home charging needed me to spend around another £1K for the 7.5 Kwh capability.
My PHEV allows me to switch manually between EV mode and ICE should I want to, enabling me to save battery for the urban part of any longer journeys.
I'm not sure what tax advantages exist or once existed, per quote from earlier poster?

 

[En]

Not every hotel guest needs to fully charge theri vehicle from empty to full every night.

and if you are a t the hotel for 8 / 12 /16 hours or not going to use your car for a day or 2 you don;t need a fast charger , just a granny lead

 

[Meerkat]

Not every hotel guest needs to fully charge theri vehicle from empty to full every night.

But…..unless they can definitely get home on the charge they have then they are likely going to plug it in for a top up, and you can’t get them out of bed to swap.