Selection Tests Changing..

[choo~choo]

Just heard the driver selection process is changing the end of this year, furthermore it will allow people with 2 fails the chance to reapply...

 

[londonwall]

Any idea what the tests will be? Cheers

 

[MR_P]

Perhaps starting to use Simulators instead of Group Bourdon etc?

 

[choo~choo]

Not sure, I think the dials test is staying.. I heard October time..

 

[Dave1987]

Where did you hear that from??

 

[londonwall]

Any idea if a pass in the current tests would still be valid?

 

[Beveridges]

I would think that current passes will be valid until they expire. Otherwise TOC's would have to send everyone on their "waiting lists" through the tests again to do the new tests, which would cause massive problems for any TOCs trying to start a new training course around the changeover date.

 

[E&W Lucas]

There was a consultation document doing the rounds a while back. Concern over the number of people passing the tests, but failing the training, or having problems soon afterwards. The aim was to make the tests more selective.

I have no idea about timescales, but i wouldn't get too excited about it being a "second chance"; if you've failed under the present regime, you are less likely still to pass a more sophisticated aptitude test battery.

 

[choo~choo]

Word I had was if you have already passed they are wiped and not current.. I passed all my elements today btw

 

[Dave1987]

Perhaps starting to use Simulators instead of Group Bourdon etc?

That would be impossible for the GA academy in Stratford. The simulators are always in use for current driver assessments and training. Would be impossible to put hundreds of candidates in the simulator as each would have to be shown what is what in the cab, it would take ages.

 

[E&W Lucas]

Word I had was if you have already passed they are wiped and not current.. I passed all my elements today btw

On a personal level, nice one!

If the aim is to "raise the bar", what you have said about previous results being invalidated would make sense. The standard changes, and prospective drivers must be in compliance with the new one. Await developments with interest.
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Perhaps starting to use Simulators instead of Group Bourdon etc?

No, simulators are for the training/ testing of technical skills. These tests are to see if you have the aptitude to be trained, plus cope with the wider aspects of the role.

 

[A-driver]

Why would they use simulators for the testing? They are aptitude tests-not tests to see if you can already drive a train because you own a train sim game on your PC. The tests are to see if you are likely to be able to understand and take in everything taught to you in training and work safely, alone, communicate clearly etc.

 

[MR_P]

That would be impossible for the GA academy in Stratford. The simulators are always in use for current driver assessments and training. Would be impossible to put hundreds of candidates in the simulator as each would have to be shown what is what in the cab, it would take ages.

I agree but a simpler PC based application could be used with a bespoke control panel (like for the reactions test). The candidate then uses the simulation for say half an hour - this could then be used to replace the concentration test and the reactions test and would be more realistic than dots/symbols.

 

[Dave1987]

I agree but a simpler PC based application could be used with a bespoke control panel (like for the reactions test). The candidate then uses the simulation for say half an hour - this could then be used to replace the concentration test and the reactions test and would be more realistic than dots/symbols.

The whole point of the dots test is to test whether you can remain focussed on a very mundane task. OPC have no doubt spent years refining the tests to make sure they are appropriate. Just because you dont think they are appropriate doesnt mean they aren't.

 

[BravoGolfMike]

I wonder if the emergence of practise software has contributed in some way to this decision? (If it is taken.) The point of two strikes and you're out is so you can't learn how to pass. Clearly that is no longer the case.

 

[A-driver]

I agree but a simpler PC based application could be used with a bespoke control panel (like for the reactions test). The candidate then uses the simulation for say half an hour - this could then be used to replace the concentration test and the reactions test and would be more realistic than dots/symbols.

But what would that prove? As I say, the tests arnt to see if you can drive a train-they are to see if you are likely to be able to learn and retain everything you need to know to do the job.

Making a train start and stop and pressing the buttons to acknowledge the beeps is the easy bit and isn't going to prove you will be able to do the job.

 

[MR_P]

The whole point of the dots test is to test whether you can remain focussed on a very mundane task. OPC have no doubt spent years refining the tests to make sure they are appropriate. Just because you dont think they are appropriate doesnt mean they aren't.

I didnt say I think they are appropriate, but as time goes by things are improved on - E.g The hazard perception test was introduced for car driving tests.
I'm not talking about a train simulator type game but something specifically designed for this purpose.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But what would that prove? As I say, the tests arnt to see if you can drive a train-they are to see if you are likely to be able to learn and retain everything you need to know to do the job.

Making a train start and stop and pressing the buttons to acknowledge the beeps is the easy bit and isn't going to prove you will be able to do the job.

I agree - I'm not suggesting replacing the parts that test for this i.e The structured interview, the managers interview, the fault finding test and the memory test.

 

[A-driver]

But what im saying is that sticking you in a simulator and seeing how you get on trying to drive a train will be a waste of time and money and prove nothing! Some people come on the job with no idea how trains are powered or that they don't have steering wheels etc. and they make just as good drivers as those who have come from other rail jobs or relevant experiences and interests.

 

[MR_P]

Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word simulator but instead said, a computer based application to test both reactions and concentration.

For instance - you could have a view a bit like from a cab, i.e moving landscape (using graphics though) and you pass markers on each side that have 2,3, 4 or 5 dots on them. You press a button as you pass each marker that has 4 lots of dots. The dots could be colour coded so you press the corresponding colour as well.
The speed could also increase as time goes by.

This task still requires concentration and reactions skills but is more inline with driving a train i.e the moving landscape to distract you rather than looking at a piece of static paper. - But does not involve in knowing how to drive a train.

 

[Class2ldn]

This goes around every year. Its been set like this for years. Using a simulator wont necessarily be the best way to assess a candidate. Driving a train is easy. Its all the other stuff you need to know and the abilty to learn is whats tested at the moment.

 

[Dave1987]

Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word simulator but instead said, a computer based application to test both reactions and concentration.

For instance - you could have a view a bit like from a cab, i.e moving landscape (using graphics though) and you pass markers on each side that have 2,3, 4 or 5 dots on them. You press a button as you pass each marker that has 4 lots of dots. The dots could be colour coded so you press the corresponding colour as well.
The speed could also increase as time goes by.

This task still requires concentration and reactions skills but is more inline with driving a train i.e the moving landscape to distract you rather than looking at a piece of static paper. - But does not involve in knowing how to drive a train.

The dots test is far cheaper and easy to administer to many candidates simultaneously.

 

[evoluzione]

No chance you can put people in a "Simulator" to test suitability.

The current system filters out people with poor concentration, inability to retain new information with no respect for rules and regs, unable to handle a crisis etc etc

 

[Beveridges]

Everyone knows the current tests are not up to the job yet at the same time no one can think of a better solution. That is the problem and this is why this topic comes up every year yet the new tests still do not come in and the old tests remain.

 

[Silv1983]

I have been told by someone in the training department at Northern that there is talk in the industry of a simulator being used to test the concentration skills of candidates.
Supposedly there will be a train simulator like the TPE one in ardwick - on which candidates, following a familiarisation, will be required to control a train for 3 hours and keep the speed at 60mph +/- 3mph. Fall outside this and it would be a fail.
Personally I think it sounds rediculous, and can't see it - but its come from somewhere.
Sounds like torture.

 

[Beveridges]

That would be a better test of concentration than the Group Boredom test - which is a little 5 minute test lets be honest, and a lot of other tests that have no relevance at all (Reactions especially, Mechanical definetely, Dials maybe, Trainability/Glop maybe, Structured Interview not really appropriate it is one persons opinion of you & gives the assessor the ability to "remove" people who he just does not like)

 

[BravoGolfMike]

I have been told by someone in the training department at Northern that there is talk in the industry of a simulator being used to test the concentration skills of candidates.
Supposedly there will be a train simulator like the TPE one in ardwick - on which candidates, following a familiarisation, will be required to control a train for 3 hours and keep the speed at 60mph +/- 3mph. Fall outside this and it would be a fail.
Personally I think it sounds rediculous, and can't see it - but its come from somewhere.
Sounds like torture.

I have heard the same although 3 hours is absurd, it would probably be an hour at the most. The problem is that simulators are expensive bits of kit and instructors are expensive employees and you can only do one candidate at a time. Would take an entire day just to do 8 or 9 candidates and that would use up valuable simulator time. I suspect there are people in the industry who are looking seriously at this but there are issues to overcome first.

 

[GB]

I have been told by someone in the training department at Northern that there is talk in the industry of a simulator being used to test the concentration skills of candidates.
Supposedly there will be a train simulator like the TPE one in ardwick - on which candidates, following a familiarisation, will be required to control a train for 3 hours and keep the speed at 60mph +/- 3mph. Fall outside this and it would be a fail.
Personally I think it sounds rediculous, and can't see it - but its come from somewhere.
Sounds like torture.

If that sounds like torture then you are probably applying for the wrong job.

I'd imagine that if it does come through the "simulator" will be a significant cut down version of a proper simulator used for training and assessing, thus lowering the costs and be able to have multiple simulators.

 

[Silv1983]

If that sounds like torture then you are probably applying for the wrong job.

I'd imagine that if it does come through the "simulator" will be a significant cut down version of a proper simulator used for training and assessing, thus lowering the costs and be able to have multiple simulators.

I'm already in the job thanks

Anyway I think you misunderstand... im saying looking at a computer screen for 3 hours with little or no change in variables (no station stop/starts, no restrictive signalling, no change in speed, no line curvature or change in environment, no P-way to whistle up for, AWS horns, no real change in braking or throttle control, no cup of tea to swig, no lineside debris, furniture or infrastructure to look at, no change in weather, no change in light conditions, no other trains passing you by, no breeze from the window, no diagram to glance at etc etc) must be torture.

I don't know what you drive or where GB but I think you'll agree there's little driving in the industry that'd be that sterile/clinical.

 

[BravoGolfMike]

Totally agree with Silv, 3 hours on a sim just trying to keep to 60mph would be horrendous. Plus I think it'd be trickier than in real life as you don't get a feel for accelerating/decelerating or any gradients. If it just decides that you are going uphill and you start slowing down your reaction time will be slower than in real life.

 

[A-driver]

I think that most of us who do the job would fail that anyway! Will they allow tea to be taken in as I wouldn't last 10 mins without!