Selby-York

[rand17]

Hi there!

This is my first post on this forum after reading it for a while. Great content!!

I am wondering if a Selby-York season is valid for Leeds-York (start short at Leeds) as single tickets for Selby-York via Leeds exist. Season condition is via any permitted route but not sure what that means.
Otherwise any other suggestions to cut the (very expensive) Leeds-York season ticket?

Cheers!
Rand17

 

[jfollows]

Any permitted route means any route permitted in the routeing guide, https://rgpp.iblocks.co.uk/reference-data which in this case translates to the mapped route showed on map YA at https://rgpp.iblocks.co.uk/maps which excludes Selby to York via Leeds as a permitted route.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Otherwise any other suggestions to cut the (very expensive) Leeds-York season ticket?

Welcome to the forum! How frequently will you be travelling between Leeds and York? A standard 7 day season ticket is £75.70, or £59.10 if restricted to travelling on Northern Only.

 

[rand17]

Welcome to the forum! How frequently will you be travelling between Leeds and York? A standard 7 day season ticket is £75.70, or £59.10 if restricted to travelling on Northern Only.

Thanks for the reply! 4-5 times a week. I was just looking at alternatives to lower the costs of my travel as for the distance this seems quite pricey

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Tuesday at 08:26 ==

Any permitted route means any route permitted in the routeing guide, https://rgpp.iblocks.co.uk/reference-data which in this case translates to the mapped route showed on map YA at https://rgpp.iblocks.co.uk/maps which excludes Selby to York via Leeds as a permitted route.

Thanks! I was wondering why tickets via Leeds are therefore sold on booking platforms like Trainline, although the journey takes double the time? Why that doesn't make it a permitted route?

 

[jfollows]

It’s not a permitted route for “any permitted” tickets, because “any permitted” doesn’t mean “any route permitted by any ticket”, it means “any route permitted by the routeing guide”.

 

[anothertyke]

It depends where you live and work, but the 840 and 843 bus can be competitive at 30 pounds per five day week (20 pounds from 1 January).

 

[Mcr Warrior]

It’s not a permitted route for “any permitted” tickets, because “any permitted” doesn’t mean “any route permitted by any ticket”, it means “any route permitted by the routeing guide”.

Righto! Can get itineraries offered by NRE from Selby to York, with a single 13 minute change at Leeds, priced at £10.10, which just happens to be the Anytime Day Single fare from Selby to York, i.e. route 'Any Permitted', and doesn't seem to be a combination of tickets. What's going on? Is there some easement in play here?

 

[Watershed]

Have you considered buying Advance tickets in each direction? They can be available at fairly reasonable prices, especially on the Northern services. For example looking at a Wednesday a few weeks ahead you can get Advances on the 07:46 out and 17:08 back for £13.80.

Obviously it's not ideal that you are tied to your booked train, but if your working hours and days are predictable then it could be a suitable option.

Otherwise going for a Northern only season ticket also affords a saving of £16.60 a week (22%). Again not earth shattering but Northern do have 1 semi-fast train and hour and 1 'stopper' which takes around 5 minutes longer, so it's a viable option - even if you would lose out on the flexibility of being able to take TPE and XC services.

There are certainly some loophole fares available in this area but I'm not going to disclose them online as Pricing Managers are always reading this forum! You might want attend a forum meal or walk if you'd like to discuss those in person - see the Forum Meets section for more details.

 

[jfollows]

Righto! Can get itineraries offered by NRE from Selby to York, with a single 13 minute change at Leeds, priced at £10.10, which just happens to be the Anytime Day Single fare from Selby to York, i.e. route 'Any Permitted', and doesn't seem to be a combination of tickets. What's going on? Is there some easement in play here?

Yes, I saw that as well, but couldn’t see an easement to permit it.

 

[rand17]

Have you considered buying Advance tickets in each direction? They can be available at fairly reasonable prices, especially on the Northern services. For example looking at a Wednesday a few weeks ahead you can get Advances on the 07:46 out and 17:08 back for £13.80.

Obviously it's not ideal that you are tied to your booked train, but if your working hours and days are predictable then it could be a suitable option.

Otherwise going for a Northern only season ticket also affords a saving of £16.60 a week (22%). Again not earth shattering but Northern do have 1 semi-fast train and hour and 1 'stopper' which takes around 5 minutes longer, so it's a viable option - even if you would lose out on the flexibility of being able to take TPE and XC services.

There are certainly some loophole fares available in this area but I'm not going to disclose them online as Pricing Managers are always reading this forum! You might want attend a forum meal or walk if you'd like to discuss those in person - see the Forum Meets section for more details.

Thanks. That's what I am doing at the moment but lacks the flexibility which I will need since september. I guees Northern only is not that bad. Perhaps I will join one of the meets

 

[ainsworth74]

Obviously it's not ideal that you are tied to your booked train, but if your working hours and days are predictable then it could be a suitable option.

I can't speak to that bit of Northern but certainly round my way you can use Seatfrog to swap to your AP to another service for £1.50 or £2.00. I've never seen it not be available but that might be different for a large city like Leeds. I use APs for my commute sometimes it's been handy on the odd occasion I've had a change of plan and it's still cheaper than getting a flexible ticket (or at least no more expensive).

 

[rand17]

Yes I am aware of Seatfrog but the availability on this route is very low...

 

[ainsworth74]

Yes I am aware of Seatfrog but the availability on this route is very low...

Ah shame

 

[kieron]

The 2025 revision of the routeing guide makes the answer to the original question fairly simple. It says:

Your ticket may show ... If no specific route or Train Company is shown, then (subject to any time restrictions for the type of fare you have purchased) it will be valid on:
...
as shown on an itinerary presented by the journey planner on www.nationalrail.co.uk or from a Licensed Retailer in connection with the purchase of a Ticket and/or including the relevant restrictions applying to that Ticket.

(my bold, their grammar)

If you obtain an itinerary from a Licensed Retailer (such as trainline) for an "any permitted" Selby–York single or return, then an "any permitted" Selby–York season ticket is valid on those specific trains.

The routeing guide mentioned above does exist, but it is complex and poorly documented, and I don't know if you can rely on it to justify a route.

Finally, if anyone is wondering why this itinerary is offered, they should remember that there can be a big difference between the text of an easement and the data retailers use for it.

 

[MrJeeves]

What's going on? Is there some easement in play here?

There is, and a good starting hint might be looking to see which TOCs are common across all the itineraries which return through fares.

 

[rand17]

Does this mean that would be reasonable to buy a season ticket and start short at Leeds?

 

[kieron]

If you have a permitted route between Selby and York, a season ticket would permit you to start and end your journey at any station along the route.

 

[rand17]

Thanks, and how feasible is to do that with an annual season ticket?

 

[yorkie]

Yes, it's temporarily permitted via Leeds Group due to an easement which applies during the ongoing TRU works. Normally you can only travel direct (including via Sherburn-in-Elmet and Church Fenton as well as the more direct route avoiding those stations).

It won't work the barriers, and will flag up as invalid and require staff to look at the ticket and then decide what to do.

Technically, doubling back within Leeds Group - which isn't normally permitted anyway - is only allowable for the purpose of interchanging (i.e. changing trains), though as this technicality isn't widely advertised, I could understand how someone could plead ignorance when following such an itinerary and then exercising their right to a "break of journey", but I really wouldn't recommend it in this case.

There are a lot of routeing relaxations at the moment, however if they realise people are taking advantage of the easements by making journeys to/from intermediate points that normally require higher fares, I suspect they may withdraw or amend the easements, or they may be stricter about the dates they apply and only apply the easements on days when there is genuine hardship making certain journeys, or they may tighten the easements.

Even discussing fare anomalies on this forum can put good value fares at great risk.

Perhaps I will join one of the meets

There is a poll for a forum meal here: https://app.rallly.co/poll/Urbr28bP1kMd and you'd be most welcome to join us (even if it's just for pre-meal drinks at York Tap before your train home)