Security alert at Blackpool North

[Gloster]

I can appreciate the need to be cautious - but I am sure it could have been investigated that without the need for shutting everything down as from what was visible from the small images posted here it did look something like what it was a carrier bag!

One only has to travel on the train through urban areas to see similar junk tossed over fences and onto embankments and cutting sides - surely much of that could be considered suspicious?

Are you willing to be the one who goes close enough to the object to get a good look at it and, if necessary, open it or otherwise handle it to check that it is not dangerous?

 

[John Luxton]

Totally agree with this.

Unfortunately we live in an age where threats are far too common. Any cost or delay to help prevent loss of life is worth it. The one time we ignore it may be the one time we shouldn’t have.

The only problem here is in doing so we are letting the evil people who do occasionally cause explosions are winning as they know how cautious people are becoming. Thus they can cause mayhem without even trying, and hyper caution with litter or just abandoned / lost property is a spin off. I think there needs to be caution. Thus if one comes across a bag with a ticking sound emitting from it (yes I know terrorists probably use digital timers these days), wires can be seen or other potentially harmful then yes get everyone away as quickly as possible. Surely just by looking closely at the bag without touching it the contents could have been determined? If I saw a bag lying around my firth thought would not be its a potential bomb. I just don't think that way. Yes it could be, but probably isn't.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jul 2022 ==

Are you willing to be the one who goes close enough to the object to get a good look at it and, if necessary, open it or otherwise handle it to check that it is not dangerous?

To be honest I probably would be - because I am not generally a very suspicious person. It is not as though we are in the midst of a terrorist campaign to the extent we were during the 1970s and 80s when the IRA were active. We occasionally get the odd deranged religious extremist but despite what ever the government say the threat level is I don't feel threatened when I go about my daily business or travel on the bus or train. Something has the potential to happen - but I also have the potential to win the lottery jackpot - but that is also rather unlikely as well.

 

[skyhigh]

wires can be seen

Wires were reported as seen - and from what I can tell above they turned out to be laces.

If the bomb squad (who are the experts) felt it was required to use a robot, surely we should trust their judgement?

 

[John Luxton]

Wires were reported as seen - and from what I can tell above they turned out to be laces.

If the bomb squad (who are the experts) felt it was required to use a robot, surely we should trust their judgement?

Okay fair enough if they were misinterpreted but generally laces look like laces and wires look like wires unless there are trendy trainers.

But was the bomb squad + robot summoned by the police who had not taken a good look before doing so?

Once on the scene they probably might have just decided to get their kit out.

 

[DelayRepay]

I imagine that in this case, because of the location of the package, it wasn't easy to inspect close up, so they will have had to start the evacuation. And once you've evacuated an area due to a potential bomb, are you really going to ask a police officer (or anyone else) to go and have a closer look?

I once worked in an office next to a prominent London landmark. There were a few times we were asked to move to the other side of the building, and a couple of times we were evacuated due to suspect parcels and vehicles. It was a nuisance but far better than the alternative. Especially in the eyes of my colleague who'd been caught up (but not hurt) in the 1992 London Bridge bombing.

 

[nottsnurse]

The only problem here is in doing so we are letting the evil people who do occasionally cause explosions are winning as they know how cautious people are becoming. Thus they can cause mayhem without even trying, and hyper caution with litter or just abandoned / lost property is a spin off. I think there needs to be caution. Thus if one comes across a bag with a ticking sound emitting from it (yes I know terrorists probably use digital timers these days), wires can be seen or other potentially harmful then yes get everyone away as quickly as possible. Surely just by looking closely at the bag without touching it the contents could have been determined? If I saw a bag lying around my firth thought would not be its a potential bomb. I just don't think that way. Yes it could be, but probably isn't.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jul 2022 ==


To be honest I probably would be - because I am not generally a very suspicious person. It is not as though we are in the midst of a terrorist campaign to the extent we were during the 1970s and 80s when the IRA were active. We occasionally get the odd deranged religious extremist but despite what ever the government say the threat level is I don't feel threatened when I go about my daily business or travel on the bus or train. Something has the potential to happen - but I also have the potential to win the lottery jackpot - but that is also rather unlikely as well.

How you feel is immaterial. It wouldn't be you who had to approach a suspect package and make a decision whether to call Bomb Disposal or not.

Having experienced the immediate effects of a comparatively small IED whilst in Afghanistan and still living with consequences of that incident (loss of hearing on my left side, reduced mobility of my left shoulder, numerous pieces of non-metallic shrapnel still in-situ and the feelings of guilt that come from surviving when a colleague didn't ) I can confirm that potential IEDs are to be respected.

Btw, the Parsons Green IED was in a plastic bag. Very few IEDs have "BOMB" written on them with a fizzing fuse sticking out of the top. It's almost as if terrorists want IEDs to appear benign.

Parsons Green: Underground blast a terror incident, say police

Twenty-nine people are injured after an "improvised explosive device" was detonated on a District Line train in south-west London.

www.bbc.co.uk

Pictures taken of the train show a white bucket on fire inside a supermarket bag, with wires trailing on to the carriage floor. The BBC understands the device had a timer.

 

[fgwrich]

How you feel is immaterial. It wouldn't be you who had to approach a suspect package and make a decision whether to call Bomb Disposal or not.

Having experienced the immediate effects of a comparatively small IED whilst in Afghanistan and still living with consequences of that incident (loss of hearing on my left side, reduced mobility of my left shoulder, numerous pieces of non-metallic shrapnel still in-situ and the feelings of guilt that come from surviving when a colleague didn't ) I can confirm that potential IEDs are to be respected.

Btw, the Parsons Green IED was in a plastic bag. Very few IEDs have "BOMB" written on them with a fizzing fuse sticking out of the top. It's almost as if terrorists want IEDs to appear benign.

Parsons Green: Underground blast a terror incident, say police

Twenty-nine people are injured after an "improvised explosive device" was detonated on a District Line train in south-west London.

www.bbc.co.uk

Indeed. You only have to look at the build up to (and sadly results) of the 7/7 Bombing to see how well those involved with such intentions will try to blend in.

Although we (in my role) are trained in the HOT Principle (as well as various other ways to spot suspicious behaviour and activity), there were still plenty of times and circumstances when I’ve certainly been nervous to approach a potential suspect device - thankfully none I’ve had to deal with yet have been viable, but it’s not something you walk up to without some degree of fear!

On a side note, I’m sorry to hear about your previous experiences @nottsnurse and I hope you are ok.

 

[johntea]

7/7 was perhaps always a case of 'when' not 'if', the like of the Manchester Arena attack and the already mentioned Parsons Green attacks on the other hand are more the type of attack that the intelligence services have a headache with - lone wolf terrorism

Do they still carry out metal detector / random stop and search operations at railway stations? I remember being stopped just as I was exiting the barrier area at Leeds station many years ago (I think it may have even been before the automated barriers!) and having my backpack searched then being given a slip of paper afterwards

 

[Recessio]

I thought 'cabbage' as well.


I did once carry a bag containing wires (RJ45 network cables), and a battery, on LU. No ill intent. I was happy to describe/explain the content in detail if asked. I kept the bag firmly closed in transit.

Once when leaving a rented flat, I was doing a lot of cleaning so bought some cleaning supplies to take to the flat. When at the flat, realised we already had loads, so took the leftovers back with me as well when finished.

That's how I found myself walking through Victoria Station with 4 bottles of bleach, 2 bottles of drain cleaner, a bottle of toilet cleaner and a bottle of oven pride. Very glad I didn't get stopped by BTP and asked to explain that one...

 

[Donny85]

Nice to see the Chairman of the Hindsight Committee is here.

An unidentified object apparently with protruding wires in an unusual location. If I had to drive a train next to it I'd rather they checked it out first!

They are the experts, they know what they are doing.

To be fair to John, myself working in a role in which I have to make safety critical decisions based on the balance of probability, sometimes with as little as 15 minutes to spare, a foot asylum bag with what appeared to be laces protruding would have aired on the side of trainers in a bag to me. Had it not been the bag of a sportswear store, or somewhere more high profile than Blackpool, then that might have been a different story.

 

[John Luxton]

To be fair to John, myself working in a role in which I have to make safety critical decisions based on the balance of probability, sometimes with as little as 15 minutes to spare, a foot asylum bag with what appeared to be laces protruding would have aired on the side of trainers in a bag to me. Had it not been the bag of a sportswear store, or somewhere more high profile than Blackpool, then that might have been a different story.

This is what I was trying to get at - who makes the judgement call that something is suspicious?

With all the rubbish thrown onto the railway estate in urban areas there could be all sorts of potential devices hiding in plain sight amongst the rubbish.

Besides what about lost / abandoned luggage?

We will have all heard the recorded messages that luggage may be removed / damaged etc - but when does luggage get judged to be suspicious?

Why I ask is I observed an incident on an Avanti Pendolino a few weeks ago which really I thought nothing of until this cropped up.

I boarded the train at Carlisle in the seating bay in front was a smart suited gent of possibly Chinese / Japanese origin. I was preoccupied with what was going on out of the window and didn't see the chap move or alight.

I only became aware of it when the train manager came around on a ticket check.

He spotted a case on the rack above the now empty seating bay and asked a passenger in the opposite bay if they knew who the case belonged to. That passenger said he had seen it put there by the chap who had been sitting there.

It was only then that I then noticed that the oriental gent was no longer sitting there.

The other passenger commented to the TM that the passenger in question must have either gone to the toilet or alighted at Penrith / Lancaster.

The train manager replied that he would make an announcement about not leaving luggage unattended.

Once the ticket check in the carriage I was in was completed the TM did make the announcement.

No one returned to the luggage and the TM didn't come back to check or at least had not done so by the time I alighted further down the line.

I didn't really think much of the incident at the time.

On reflection looking back in the wake of the Blackpool incident I would say that had this case turned out to be something nasty the potential could have been much worse being on board at train in a confined space, much more so than in a relatively open station / trackside area.

In reality it obviously was what it was an item of luggage accidentally left behind.

But how is that judgement of something being suspicious made?

Are some people tasked with making the judgement call more cautious than others?

 

[Deafdoggie]

trendy trainers

I doubt it. It was Blackpool

 

[jon0844]

Besides what about lost / abandoned luggage?

We will have all heard the recorded messages that luggage may be removed / damaged etc - but when does luggage get judged to be suspicious?

The HOT protocol. If it's in a place where you'd expect to see a bag, and not obviously hidden, then it wouldn't be treated as such a risk compared to it being stashed somewhere it shouldn't be.

 

[HuggyB87]

The protocol when deeming if an unattended item is safe or not is the HOT protocol (I’m sure many if not all rail personnel are aware of this acronym)
H - is it Hidden?
O - is it Obviously suspicious?
T - is it Typical of the surrounding environment?

If any element of the above is a failure, it’s deemed a suspicious package and robust processes are followed.

In this case, I would assume the package failed on the Obvious test - if there are laces sticking out - at the time, lack of information and heightened suspicion about the package, one could infer these laces to be some form of wire.

 

[syorksdeano]

I was at Blackpool North at the time so can probably answer a few questions.

The package in question was examined by the police, who then shouted for everyone to get back (this was after the evacuation). The package was then looked at again and the cordon extended.

The bomb squad arrived from Chester and examined it themselves and they were not happy hence why Wall-E was let out of the truck.

Laces, wires or whatever they wasn't happy with I don't care if they blew it up.

How the suspect package got there I will keep quiet for now as I know the police are looking into it.

Given some of the attitudes of certain passengers, I'm surprised some didn't end up in an ambulance. One passenger even questioned why the trains can't run while waiting for the bomb squad.

I'm not a member of staff but a passenger myself, and I know Blackpool North staff get some stick on here at times, but on Sunday they did a brilliant job.

 

[jon0844]

It does sound like an event like this will actually justify their policy of keeping platforms clear.

 

[John Luxton]

The protocol when deeming if an unattended item is safe or not is the HOT protocol (I’m sure many if not all rail personnel are aware of this acronym)
H - is it Hidden?
O - is it Obviously suspicious?
T - is it Typical of the surrounding environment?

If any element of the above is a failure, it’s deemed a suspicious package and robust processes are followed.

In this case, I would assume the package failed on the Obvious test - if there are laces sticking out - at the time, lack of information and heightened suspicion about the package, one could infer these laces to be some form of wire.

Thanks for explaining that. I can see now why the forgotten case I saw on Avanti didn't attract quite so much attention.

 

[weepingwillowb]

On a visit to London in the mid-1980s (?) I entered an Underground station, and was stopped at the top of an escalator by a policewoman who asked me to show her what was inside the carrier bag I had with me. Checks were being carried out in Underground stations at that time because of the possibility of Provisional IRA attacks. Was it around that time that lidless waste bins started to disappear from major railway stations?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I was at Blackpool North at the time so can probably answer a few questions.

I'm not a member of staff but a passenger myself, and I know Blackpool North staff get some stick on here at times, but on Sunday they did a brilliant job.

this is worth repeating imho

 

[43066]

I was at Blackpool North at the time so can probably answer a few questions.

The package in question was examined by the police, who then shouted for everyone to get back (this was after the evacuation). The package was then looked at again and the cordon extended.

The bomb squad arrived from Chester and examined it themselves and they were not happy hence why Wall-E was let out of the truck.

Laces, wires or whatever they wasn't happy with I don't care if they blew it up.

How the suspect package got there I will keep quiet for now as I know the police are looking into it.

Given some of the attitudes of certain passengers, I'm surprised some didn't end up in an ambulance. One passenger even questioned why the trains can't run while waiting for the bomb squad.

I'm not a member of staff but a passenger myself, and I know Blackpool North staff get some stick on here at times, but on Sunday they did a brilliant job.

Fair enough then - clearly it must have looked petty dubious if staff, police and even the bomb squad weren’t happy with it! It’s almost impressive someone managed to achieve that level of concern by (presumably) just discarding some old trainers in a carrier bag!

this is worth repeating imho

Indeed. Perhaps the OP would consider passing that comment on to Northern if they wish to provide some “official” positive feedback.

 

[skyhigh]

Fair enough then - clearly it must have looked petty dubious if staff, police and even the bomb squad weren’t happy with it! It’s almost impressive someone managed to achieve that level of concern by (presumably) just discarding some old trainers in a carrier bag!

We very much do not know the full circumstances here. I know of a previous incident where some nitwit decided to put a bag on an overhead rack and 'airdrop' bomb threats to other passengers mobile phones. The bag did not appear suspicious, but clearly there was a major response. Similar may have occurred here.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

It does sound like an event like this will actually justify their policy of keeping platforms clear.

Not necessarily - the fact that it has happened despite that policy may show that the policy is ineffective and pointless.

 

[jon0844]

Not necessarily - the fact that it has happened despite that policy may show that the policy is ineffective and pointless.

True.

 

[66701GBRF]

What the smaller picture posted doesn't show well is that the laces (or bag string) looks like it was purposely attached to the rail...almost like a pressure switch.