Secret cancellations/delays?

[rmt4ever]

On Wednesday this week I was having to travel from Rayners Lane on the Piccadilly Line into London. The service status on the TFL site was showing as good, and noted no cancellations or delays.

I checked the train times with google live trains, and decided on the 2109 train. I arrived in good time at about 2105. The 2109 train did not come (though google said it had been and gone- it hadn’t). The platform departure screens were not helpful. There are no help points on the platform, no staff to ask for help, and was no announcements regarding any cancellations or delays.

Google stated the next train was due at 2119, but again this did not show up, still no announcements, and still the TFL website showing no delays.

Eventually a train turned up and we departed at 2224 2124

Now I know sometimes trains are delayed or cancelled, this is inevitable. But why are London Underground not telling passengers about these delays or cancellations? Every other train company lets passengers know about a cancelled train. If I had known I could have left 15 minutes later and not been standing on the platform getting frustrated for all that time.

Also, can I claim Delay Repay for this? I was using Oyster prepay.

 

[rebmcr]

LU (as with many other metro-type services) doesn't really run to a timetable. There is a nominal one that helps to plan train and driver assignment, but throughout the course of a day the focus is on keeping the gaps evened-out, no matter if it means workings drift away from their timings on paper. This is rather sensible.

TfL also uses a set of tests for whether a line is described as Good, Minor, or Severe. Those tests cover the entire line, and have some built-in acceptance of poor provision (such as gaps or cancellations). This can cause situations like you experienced, if the gap in service is right under the acceptance threshold, and especially if the disruption is confined to a small area, despite being advertised as Good. Many believe this is not sensible, and even deliberately misleading.

https://truetubestatus.com/ operates their own set of tests to try and describe the service more accurately than TfL does.

 

[Dstock7080]

The 2109 train ex-siding was cancelled due to no available operator.
The 2119 to Cockfosters ran late on its westbound working and reversed at Ruislip siding, still a few minutes late eastbound it arrived at Rayners Lane at 2123.
The 2126 train ex-siding departed on time.

The delay from 2109 to 2124 is exactly 15min, and is claimable for a refund.

 

[Mawkie]

Eventually a train turned up and we departed at 2224.

You had me when I thought you'd been waiting over 1 hr, then lost me when it turns out that one single train was missing from the timetable.

You must have witnessed the reversing train going into the sidings (and had a realistic expectation that train would arrive back on the platform soon enough).

They have detrainment staff there, who detrain the last 3 carriages of the reversers (and all 6 in the peak), so although you didn't see any staff, there were staff on or about the opposite platform for the short time you were there.

It's good to vent, and here is a good place to do it, but there is no conspiracy to hide "secret" cancellations.

The latest "Delay Matrix" (2017) I could find is attached from a 2020 FOI.

FOI request detail

FOI request detail

tfl.gov.uk

 

[Sweetjesus]

LU (as with many other metro-type services) doesn't really run to a timetable. There is a nominal one that helps to plan train and driver assignment, but throughout the course of a day the focus is on keeping the gaps evened-out, no matter if it means workings drift away from their timings on paper. This is rather sensible.

TfL also uses a set of tests for whether a line is described as Good, Minor, or Severe. Those tests cover the entire line, and have some built-in acceptance of poor provision (such as gaps or cancellations). This can cause situations like you experienced, if the gap in service is right under the acceptance threshold, and especially if the disruption is confined to a small area, despite being advertised as Good. Many believe this is not sensible, and even deliberately misleading.

https://truetubestatus.com/ operates their own set of tests to try and describe the service more accurately than TfL does.

I believe Elizabeth line follows a timetable. Is it possible for them not run to a timetable as well? Perhaps I'm wrong but I'm under the assumption that they don't mix with other services yet even in GWML and GEML.

 

[rebmcr]

I believe Elizabeth line follows a timetable. Is it possible for them not run to a timetable as well? Perhaps I'm wrong but I'm under the assumption that they don't mix with other services yet even in GWML and GEML.

Other than on Abbey Wood-Paddington journeys, Elizabeth line trains do interact with both GWML and GEML patterns. They're mostly segregated with very few passenger services using 'their' tracks, but at some key junctions, inter-operation with both passenger and freight is unavoidable.

 

[rmt4ever]

You had me when I thought you'd been waiting over 1 hr, then lost me when it turns out that one single train was missing from the timetable.

You must have witnessed the reversing train going into the sidings (and had a realistic expectation that train would arrive back on the platform soon enough).

They have detrainment staff there, who detrain the last 3 carriages of the reversers (and all 6 in the peak), so although you didn't see any staff, there were staff on or about the opposite platform for the short time you were there.

It's good to vent, and here is a good place to do it, but there is no conspiracy to hide "secret" cancellations.

The latest "Delay Matrix" (2017) I could find is attached from a 2020 FOI.

FOI request detail

FOI request detail

tfl.gov.uk

I don’t have an issue with delays happening. Of course they do. I just cannot believe that in this day and age, in a city like London, there is not a way of informing the passengers. And that is the top and bottom of it.


Google incorrectly showing the train as on time, and even showing its ‘running’ in what looks like real time. Even though it is in fact, cancelled.


A 10 minute frequency is not that much of a frequent service. And as I found out, one train cancelled and one delayed leaves a lengthy gap. Once again, the delays and cancellations are fine, these things happen! But for goodness sake tell the passengers….


And it can be done, look at the new Queen Elizabeth Line. That has more frequent trains on many sections than every 10 minutes. And just one tap on the National Rail app will show even a couple of minutes delay to a service, and any cancellations. It seems that this information is seamlessly reflected in the Google system too. That technology is not new btw, this app has been around for years.

 

[BJames]

I don’t have an issue with delays happening. Of course they do. I just cannot believe that in this day and age, in a city like London, there is not a way of informing the passengers. And that is the top and bottom of it.


Google incorrectly showing the train as on time, and even showing its ‘running’ in what looks like real time. Even though it is in fact, cancelled.


A 10 minute frequency is not that much of a frequent service. And as I found out, one train cancelled and one delayed leaves a lengthy gap. Once again, the delays and cancellations are fine, these things happen! But for goodness sake tell the passengers….

Sorry but I can't agree - this really depends on where it is. At Rayners Lane, surely this isn't so bad? My local (London) station has a frequency of every 30 mins off peak, 15 mins peak. At the far reaches of the Met line up in Chesham and Amersham, it's a similar story with frequency. Meanwhile if the Victoria line started having 10 minute gaps I'd be concerned.

And it can be done, look at the new Queen Elizabeth Line. That has more frequent trains on many sections than every 10 minutes. And just one tap on the National Rail app will show even a couple of minutes delay to a service, and any cancellations. It seems that this information is seamlessly reflected in the Google system too. That technology is not new btw, this app has been around for years.

*pedant* it is the Elizabeth Line, not Queen Elizabeth Line

It does have more frequent trains on many sections than every 10 minutes, but there are also sections that this is not the case. See Twyford: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...3-10-10/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=call&order=wtt - 4 trains per hour, two of which are Great Western Railway operated, and thus only two of which go through to the Elizabeth Line core section.

I get that it can be hard to find info about delays to specific sections of the tube where these are run more to a timetable than to a regular frequency, such as at the far reaches of the Met, but often if there are delays you'd see TfL writing something in the service status, which might read something like (as at 10:03am) 'the next departure from Amersham will be at approximately 10:52' (note: these are made up times - I don't know the timetable for this area).