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Second Scottish Independence Referendum

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najaB

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Except you're wrong. Immigrants, especially recently arrives EU ones, contribute more to the tax take than they take out.
You don't even need to be a rocket scientist to figure that one out. Compare a 20 year old immigrant worker just arrived to a 20 year old who grew up here. They both start working and paying taxes on the same day.

The immigrant is a net contributor on day one, the UK national has 20 years of school, garbage collection, etc. to pay off before society gains any benefit from their taxes.
 
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meridian2

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Except you're wrong. Immigrants, especially recently arrives EU ones, contribute more to the tax take than they take out.
So someone straight off the boat/EasyJet with wife and two children in tow, working as a deliver man/food packer pays more tax in his first year than required by schooling/health/maternity care/defence budget/whatever, even though he's likely to be on minimum wage or close to it? That's not counting immigrants with extended families of aged parents/grandparents.

There are two aspects, the short term moral reason, and the long term implications. Re. the first, bring everyone in who wants to come, absolutely. It'll probably take 10 years for the NHS and schools to completely collapse and in the meantime people can crash out on the local surgery floor like a famine relief video and be told to return tomorrow for more of the same. And teachers may well cope with classes of 60 before they have a nervous breakdown, so there's no immediate rush. The long term implication is none of the services UK residents have enjoyed in the last half century will be available for the next 50 years. For all its manifold faults, I quite like the British way of life and am no hurry to see it replaced by something inferior for ideological reasons.
 

PaulLothian

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There are two aspects, the short term moral reason, and the long term implications. Re. the first, bring everyone in who wants to come, absolutely. It'll probably take 10 years for the NHS and schools to completely collapse and in the meantime people can crash out on the local surgery floor like a famine relief video and be told to return tomorrow for more of the same. And teachers may well cope with classes of 60 before they have a nervous breakdown, so there's no immediate rush. The long term implication is none of the services UK residents have enjoyed in the last half century will be available for the next 50 years. For all its manifold faults, I quite like the British way of life and am no hurry to see it replaced by something inferior for ideological reasons.

Are you forgetting that many of the services you mention are likely to be staffed by the people you are concerned about? Immigrants contribute in more ways than paying tax. In Scotland's case, immigration is actually likely to be a crucial feature in the country being able to care for its people, given the low birth rate.
 

HSTEd

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In Scotland's case, immigration is actually likely to be a crucial feature in the country being able to care for its people, given the low birth rate.

Thats always amusing. Scottish government demands increased immigration to support its economy - but at no point does it ever attempt to persuade English people that they should move to Scotland.

I have never once seen a "relocate in Scotland" ad campaign.
 

47802

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I think if the Scots want another independence vote then let them have one, but it would not make sense to have it before the terms of Brexit have been negoitiated, would also be unrealistic for the UK to be both negoitiating Brexit and separation of Scotland at the same time.

I''m interested to see how the SNP will deal with the issue of currency. It was a problem for them in the last vote, it would be even more of a problem now, as the idea of sharing the pound with rUK would make even less sense with rUK out of the EU, then there would be a real possibility of Border controls between Scotland and England.

Of course the difficult questions could end up being largely drowned out as happened with the Brexit vote.
 

47802

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Thats always amusing. Scottish government demands increased immigration to support its economy - but at no point does it ever attempt to persuade English people that they should move to Scotland.

I have never once seen a "relocate in Scotland" ad campaign.

Well as we know many Scots prefer people from just about anywhere but England, and that includes some who even live in England:lol::lol:
 
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PaulLothian

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Thats always amusing. Scottish government demands increased immigration to support its economy - but at no point does it ever attempt to persuade English people that they should move to Scotland.

I have never once seen a "relocate in Scotland" ad campaign.

Probably not needed - getting on for half a million Scottish residents were born in England. The brightest ones find their own way here!

And all but the ones who decide not to make any effort seem to find the Scots a pleasure to live among...
 
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meridian2

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In Scotland's case, immigration is actually likely to be a crucial feature in the country being able to care for its people, given the low birth rate.
The low birth rate in Western countries is a time bomb for anyone who cares about indigenous cultures. The subtext is we don't want kids, so let's bring in poor foreigners who haven't been educated out of reproduction. That is the state of liberalism today, short-termist and mercenary with pretensions to progressive inclusivity.

If the SNP succeed in their plan, Scotland will indeed be a very different place in 50 years.
 

najaB

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The low birth rate in Western countries is a time bomb for anyone who cares about indigenous cultures.
Only if you ignore the massive increases in life expectancy and drop in child mortality rates. This is basic high school stuff really.
 

najaB

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Perhaps in your high school, in most others declining birth rates are a plain fact: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...g-despite-an-increasing-world-population.html
I don't believe I have to spell this out...

For a population to remain stable the birth rate has to be the same as the death rate.

Historically, the combination of high infant mortality and poor health care generally meant that families needed to produce anywhere between three and five children just to keep numbers steady.

Advances in health care generally and perinatal care specifically meant that from the late 19th century onwards fewer and fewer children are required to maintain the population size (typically now it's 2.1 children per couple).

However, up until the 1960s it was difficult for women to control their own fertility and so birth rates were still relatively high - hence the huge growth in population of the 1930s onwards (the baby boom wasn't so much due to an increase in birth rates, but due to more babies surviving).

Throw in the fact that life expectancy increased by 50% or more since the late 1800s and low birth rates aren't a problem, they are a necessary requirement if we are to avoid the worst effects of overpopulation. The world population took 123 years to grow from 1B to 2B, and only 85 years to go from 2B to 7B.

The developing world is still on the front side of these population demographic curves - the green revolution allowed them to support larger and larger populations on the same amount of arable land which has lead to surges in populations. However, increased affluence is leading to similar cultural changes as we experienced in the west - more women are seeking education and controlling their fertility as a way out of being baby-making machines. Over the next couple of decades we will most likely see their birth rates dropping in a similar fashion to how they have in the West.

Edit: Just wanted to add the chart below which makes the rate of population growth over the last couple of centuries quite clear:
Population_curve.svg
 
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meridian2

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I don't believe I have to spell this out...

For a population to remain stable the birth rate has to be the same as the death rate.

Historically, the combination of high infant mortality and poor health care generally meant that families needed to produce anywhere between three and five children just to keep numbers steady.

Advances in health care generally and perinatal care specifically meant that from the late 19th century onwards fewer and fewer children are required to maintain the population size (typically now it's 2.1 children per couple).

However, up until the 1960s it was difficult for women to control their own fertility and so birth rates were still relatively high - hence the huge growth in population of the 1930s onwards (the baby boom wasn't so much due to an increase in birth rates, but due to more babies surviving).

Throw in the fact that life expectancy increased by 50% or more since the late 1800s and low birth rates aren't a problem, they are a necessary requirement if we are to avoid the worst effects of overpopulation. The world population took 123 years to grow from 1B to 2B, and only 85 years to go from 2B to 7B.

The developing world is still on the front side of these population demographic curves - the green revolution allowed them to support larger and larger populations on the same amount of arable land which has lead to surges in populations. However, increased affluence is leading to similar cultural changes as we experienced in the west - more women are seeking education and controlling their fertility as a way out of being baby-making machines. Over the next couple of decades we will most likely see their birth rates dropping in a similar fashion to how they have in the West.

Edit: Just wanted to add the chart below which makes the rate of population growth over the last century quite clear:
Population_curve.svg
There's a population shortfall even accounting for increased longevity. The liberal solution is import people, preferably those with lower expectations than the indigenous population, and allow them to pay for the higher standard of living of the existing residents in the long term. I believe cultural integrity and national diversity are things worth hanging on to. You can achieve those by controlling the number of people residing in a country so that the existing culture can assimilate them without being assimilated by them. That's the nub of the argument. If you view culture in Darwinian terms open borders are a fascinating experiment. If you want to conserve a cultural eco-system that has taken centuries to evolve, some control is necessary. As a social conservative I'm against the social laboratory approach.
 

PaulLothian

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If you view culture in Darwinian terms open borders are a fascinating experiment. If you want to conserve a cultural eco-system that has taken centuries to evolve, some control is necessary. As a social conservative I'm against the social laboratory approach.

An interesting point, with which I have some sympathy, but I reckon that that Pandora's box is well and truly open with globalisation of commerce, world-wide communications, and global catastrophes, to many of which the developed world has very much contributed.

Cultural eco-systems are really only ever a snapshot of place and time.
 

meridian2

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An interesting point, with which I have some sympathy, but I reckon that that Pandora's box is well and truly open with globalisation of commerce, world-wide communications, and global catastrophes, to many of which the developed world has very much contributed.

Cultural eco-systems are really only ever a snapshot of place and time.
Some people concede culture too easily, others are secretly or not-so-secretly pleased with the international melting pot of borderless mega-states. I'd want far more assurances about the aims and limitations of transnationalism before giving up discrete nation statehood. I especially disagree with the idea of the EU as "democratic" in the sense most people would define the word. The push for globalism is neither inevitable nor accidental.
 

EM2

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So someone straight off the boat/EasyJet with wife and two children in tow, working as a deliver man/food packer pays more tax in his first year than required by schooling/health/maternity care/defence budget/whatever, even though he's likely to be on minimum wage or close to it? That's not counting immigrants with extended families of aged parents/grandparents.
VAT on the food, clothes and other items that they buy, duty on the cigarettes they smoke and the beer they drink, VED and IPT for the car they drive, and duty on the fuel for it...
 

najaB

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There's a population shortfall even accounting for increased longevity.
Only because we're waiting for the baby boom generation to die off.

Steady-state the global population is probably about a billion or two more than it will be/should be in 50 years.
 
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meridian2

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Only because we're waiting for the baby boom generation to die off.

Steady-state the global population is probably about a billion or two more than it will be/should be in 50 years.
Should be? What eugenic nonsense is this?
 

najaB

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Should be? What eugenic nonsense is this?
Nice try, but nothing to do with eugenics. 'Should be' as in 'based on current trends, the population should be around 5 to 6 billion by 2050'.
 
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meridian2

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Nice try, but nothing to do with eugenics. 'Should be' as in 'based on current trends, the population should be around 5 to 6 billion by 2050'.
Based on current trends, Westerners aren't having enough children to maintain an identifiable cultural presence in a century's time. My only hope is the influx from African and Asian Christian countries maintains a historical religious connection.
 

najaB

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Based on current trends, Westerners aren't having enough children to maintain an identifiable cultural presence in a century's time.
I'm struggling to see the problem. When you can walk down the street in Beijing eating a Big Mac and sipping on Starbucks, and when Benedict Cumberbatch gets mobbed by Sherlock fans while filming in Tibet I don't think Western culture has anything to worry about.
 

meridian2

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I'm struggling to see the problem. When you can walk down the street in Beijing eating a Big Mac and sipping on Starbucks, and when Benedict Cumberbatch gets mobbed by Sherlock fans while filming in Tibet I don't think Western culture has anything to worry about.
If you can't see the difference between over a thousand years of Christian history, a highly developed parliamentary democracy, and an enviable depth of creative endeavour, and fast food, it's a waste of time exploring the alternatives.
 

najaB

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If you can't see the difference between over a thousand years of Christian history, a highly developed parliamentary democracy, and an enviable depth of creative endeavour, and fast food, it's a waste of time exploring the alternatives.
If you can't see that 'they' want to be like 'us' more than the other way around then I agree it's pointless.
 

meridian2

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If you can't see that 'they' want to be like 'us' more than the other way around then I agree it's pointless.
As I've never seen "Sherlock", am only familiar with Benedict Cumberbatch from posters, can't remember when I last ate a Big Mac, and have never knowingly had a Starbucks, your us is somewhat misplaced.
 

miami

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If you can't see that 'they' want to be like 'us' more than the other way around then I agree it's pointless.

I find clappers a being who's abhorrent views are swiftly becoming extinct. I'm not sure why that's a bad thing.
 

meridian2

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I find clappers a being who's abhorrent views are swiftly becoming extinct. I'm not sure why that's a bad thing.
I intend to outlive the burger eating, coffee drinking, TV addicted liberal narcissists. Why eschewing such cultural abominations should be considered "abhorrent" is something best kept to yourself.
 

HSTEd

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Only if you ignore the massive increases in life expectancy and drop in child mortality rates. This is basic high school stuff really.

Life expectancy increases do not alter the result, all they do is extend the timescale.
 

me123

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I find clappers a being who's abhorrent views are swiftly becoming extinct. I'm not sure why that's a bad thing.

I'm honestly struggling to understand what Clappers is on about. His posts are getting more and more removed from reality.

It starts to make sense if we introduce the concept of genetic purity that he seems to be skirting around without saying outright, but obviously I don't want to put those words in his mouth.
 

najaB

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Life expectancy increases do not alter the result, all they do is extend the timescale.
They when the life expectancy means that more people survive to reproductive age. Average life expectancy isn't just about the max, it also moves the median.
 

PaulLothian

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Thats always amusing. Scottish government demands increased immigration to support its economy - but at no point does it ever attempt to persuade English people that they should move to Scotland.

I have never once seen a "relocate in Scotland" ad campaign.

There you go - a shame you didn't ask sooner.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/78...erence-Scotland-referendum-remain-voters-move

Unfortunately (but unsurprisingly) rather a graceless response from the Express...

Nicola Sturgeon makes brazen call to English Remain voters to move to SCOTLAND
NICOLA Sturgeon made a shameless plea to English and Welsh residents who voted to remain in the EU referendum as she made her bid for an independence referendum at the SNP conference.
 
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