Second penalty fare

[confusioncity]

hi everyone

so on february 2nd, i travelled under a child ticket (stupid i know) to try and save some quick money, i apologised and offered to pay the full fair but, of course, the officer cautioned me and issued an MG11 which is yet to arrive even a month later. he advised i buy a railcard for 26-30 which i did that same day as i didn't want to cause any more trouble for myself.

fast forward to march and a few times that month, for some reason, the railcard discount wasn't applying to my ticket so i applied the 16-17 saver (again stupidly) thinking the discount offered were the same, but turns out 16-17 saver discounts a little higher. very stupid of me, i should've asked the ticket officers at the station but i'm always in a rush to catch my train (will be doing this from now on) and i was issued another penalty fare. it will most likely come in a few weeks. in both instances i apologised profusely and offered to pay the full fare immediately but the officer said i had to wait for the letter. i had no intention of avoiding paymnet but stupidly thought i could save a few coins.

my concern is, now that is my second penalty fare and will i be summoned to court? can i reply and ask for it to be settled out of court so i can pay whatever fine they require. this has been quite stressful and i don't intend to repeat this again. how can i ensure this isn't taken to court? i'm more than willing to pay the fines and apologise through letter or email but of course i have no contacts to do this.

thank you for your advice in advance

 

[glasgowniteowl]

How much was the ticket you were trying to buy where your railcard wouldnt work and what time were you trying to buy it at?

 

[skyhigh]

i was issued another penalty fare. it will most likely come in a few weeks.

You haven't been issued with a penalty fare - you've been reported.

A penalty fare is 2x the fare due or £20, whichever is higher and comes with a right of appeal. If you are reported, they will likely look at the evidence and write to you for your side of the story. They may allow you to pay an out of court settlement to avoid the matter proceeding any further - but this is likely to be much more expensive than a penalty fare would have been.

how can i ensure this isn't taken to court?

Best advice would be wait until you hear from the train company, then come back here for further advice (assuming you gave your correct name and address).

 

[Watershed]

i had no intention of avoiding paymnet

Ok...

but stupidly thought i could save a few coins

...so which is it? If you were trying to save a few coins then you were attempting to avoid payment of the correct fare. Which is an offence for which they can prosecute you.

this has been quite stressful and i don't intend to repeat this again. how can i ensure this isn't taken to court?

There is no way of guaranteeing that. If you had been issued with Penalty Fares, you would have received paperwork indicating how to pay etc. at the time.

As you mention being reported, it sounds like they've reported you to the Debt Recovery and Prosecutions Unit with a view to potentially prosecuting you.

You will need to wait until they write to you - which may take up to 6 months after the event. They will likely ask you for your side of the story and whether you have any comments you would like to add.

When that letter arrives, it will be your chance to apologise and ask for an out of Court settlement. But as I say, there is no guarantee they will offer one to you, particularly in the circumstances of committing fare evasion twice in quick succession.

 

[RPI]

hi everyone

so on february 2nd, i travelled under a child ticket (stupid i know) to try and save some quick money, i apologised and offered to pay the full fair but, of course, the officer cautioned me and issued an MG11 which is yet to arrive even a month later. he advised i buy a railcard for 26-30 which i did that same day as i didn't want to cause any more trouble for myself.

fast forward to march and a few times that month, for some reason, the railcard discount wasn't applying to my ticket so i applied the 16-17 saver (again stupidly) thinking the discount offered were the same, but turns out 16-17 saver discounts a little higher. very stupid of me, i should've asked the ticket officers at the station but i'm always in a rush to catch my train (will be doing this from now on) and i was issued another penalty fare. it will most likely come in a few weeks. in both instances i apologised profusely and offered to pay the full fare immediately but the officer said i had to wait for the letter. i had no intention of avoiding paymnet but stupidly thought i could save a few coins.

my concern is, now that is my second penalty fare and will i be summoned to court? can i reply and ask for it to be settled out of court so i can pay whatever fine they require. this has been quite stressful and i don't intend to repeat this again. how can i ensure this isn't taken to court? i'm more than willing to pay the fines and apologise through letter or email but of course i have no contacts to do this.

thank you for your advice in advance

My bold and underlined above, can I assume that the journey being made was before 10:00 on a weekday and under £12.00 in price?

 

[island]

The rail company is going to look on this as someone who doesn't give a stuff about paying the proper fare and will repeatedly buy cheaper tickets that they're not entitled to even after being caught and reported. I'd be surprised if they settle out of court – but some train companies are more likely to than others. You've not mentioned which company it is, so we can't advise on that for now.

Just to note you have not been issued any penalty fares; they are only issued at the time of the offence and specify an amount to be paid (£20 or twice the single fare for the journey if that's higher).

 

[AlbertBeale]

hi everyone

.... my concern is, now that is my second penalty fare and will i be summoned to court? can i reply and ask for it to be settled out of court so i can pay whatever fine they require. this has been quite stressful and i don't intend to repeat this again. how can i ensure this isn't taken to court? i'm more than willing to pay the fines and apologise through letter or email but of course i have no contacts to do this.

thank you for your advice in advance

This (highlighted bit) makes no sense. Fines are precisely what can only be issued if you do go to court; a fine usually also means a criminal record of some sort. Any payment you make to the rail company as an out-of-court settlement - if they're prepared to do that - is to make up for what you didn't pay, and to cover their costs in pursuing the issue. But it's not a fine (even if, financially, it feels like it) - it's what you pay to avoid the possibility of a fine (ie by avoiding going to court in the first place).

 

[Taunton]

This (highlighted bit) makes no sense. Fines are precisely what can only be issued if you do go to court; a fine usually also means a criminal record of some sort. Any payment you make to the rail company as an out-of-court settlement - if they're prepared to do that - is to make up for what you didn't pay, and to cover their costs in pursuing the issue. But it's not a fine (even if, financially, it feels like it) - it's what you pay to avoid the possibility of a fine (ie by avoiding going to court in the first place).

This one comes up again and again. All such charges are commonly referred to by the general public as fines, a longstanding usage. Charges for late return of books to the public library were always described as fines, despite obviously not involving any court. So fines it is.

 

[AlbertBeale]

This one comes up again and again. All such charges are commonly referred to by the general public as fines, a longstanding usage. Charges for late return of books to the public library were always described as fines, despite obviously not involving any court. So fines it is.

I think the distinction is useful - especially if a case does get close to, or into, the court system, when the misuse of the term "fine" would confuse all concerned. Do we want to end up with penalty fares being called fines or excess fares called fines?

 

[Elwyn]

I think the distinction is useful - especially if a case does get close to, or into, the court system, when the misuse of the term "fine" would confuse all concerned. Do we want to end up with penalty fares being called fines or excess fares called fines?

I can see the point you are trying to make. The problem is that the dictionary definition of “fine” includes payments other than court imposed fines, eg “a certain amount of money exacted as a penalty: a parking fine.” So it not inaccurate for someone to describe a penalty payment as a fine.

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/fine

 

[island]

One of this subforum's most irritating features is to derail threads with minute and trivial arguments about the definition of a "fine"; it's like anyone saying "fine" sets off one of those klaxon alarms like in QI. Such quibbling is of very little assistance to the OP, and deliberately misunderstanding the common usage of the term and declaring someone's "making no sense" is actively damaging. Such semantic discussions should be taken up, if at all, in their own thread.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I think the distinction is useful - especially if a case does get close to, or into, the court system, when the misuse of the term "fine" would confuse all concerned. Do we want to end up with penalty fares being called fines or excess fares called fines?

I can't see any sensible person getting confused. If someone says they were issued a fine at the station, we know what they mean. If they say they were issued a fine in court, we know what they mean. If someone says they were offered an out of court fine, we know what they mean. How can anyone be confused? The only "confusion" that arises is when people have a narrow view on the word fine. And they refuse to acknowledge the now broader usage of the word. One of the things of language is that it evolves.

One of this subforum's most irritating features is to derail threads with minute and trivial arguments about the definition of a "fine"; it's like anyone saying "fine" sets off one of those klaxon alarms like in QI. Such quibbling is of very little assistance to the OP, and deliberately misunderstanding the common usage of the term and declaring someone's "making no sense" is actively damaging. Such semantic discussions should be taken up, if at all, in their own thread.

Exactly this!