Second channel tunnel and Hyperloop

[stuu]

Loop won't need any signalling, maglev based systems find it difficult to hit each other anyway.

Ever thought of doing stand-up?

 

[Peter Wilde]

Other reasons why hyperloop is likely to remain a daft idea:

Adverse public reaction - most people would not feel comfortable about taking long journeys in a small windowless vehicle inside a tunnel;
Safety is a costly challenge - how does one rescue a vehicle stuck in a long tunnel?
What about staffing? If each pod is unmanned, this is analogous to the Victorian railway compartments where a whole range of crimes could be committed out of sight of authority.
The alternative of putting a conductor/guard in each vehicle would be reassuring, but hugely expensive.

 

[jon0844]

If there's a catastrophic decompression then there won't be much to rescue, but imagine how long the tunnel will be out of service also - and the cost.

I also expect Hyperloop would make for a brilliant terrorist target. Not that it is ever going to be a thing.

 

[Darandio]

The fact that some chatter in the thread is bigging up an underground taxi service as the genesis of what Hyperloop will eventually be. Shows what a basket case fantasy it is.

 

[Bevan Price]

Hyperloop may be technically feasible, but is probably too expensive to be practicable as a "people transporter".
Putting a long, large airtight tube underground would cost ££ Billions.
Getting planning consent for a multi-mile long surface-based tube would be almost impossible.
Best use might be for transferring relatively small items between nearby factories, etc.

 

[jon0844]

The throughput compared to a normal train is also ridiculous. Basically, if it could ever work, it would be low capacity and therefore something for the rich only - like Concorde was.

For moving freight, there are clearly less risks to life, but the cost would also be high for the goods being moved.

And nobody would pay for such infrastructure anyway.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Wouldn't it make more sense to close the Channel Tunnel for a period of time, do maintenance on the tunnel and then reopen it?

 

[The Planner]

Wouldn't it make more sense to close the Channel Tunnel for a period of time, do maintenance on the tunnel and then reopen it?

You reduce the capacity by running it as a single tunnel, or as sections of single via the crossovers. I doubt you would ever close the whole thing for a significant period of time.

 

[YorkRailFan]

You reduce the capacity by running it as a single tunnel, or as sections of single via the crossovers. I doubt you would ever close the whole thing for a significant period of time.

Of course, that still makes more sense than OP's plan.

 

[Bald Rick]

Wouldn't it make more sense to close the Channel Tunnel for a period of time, do maintenance on the tunnel and then reopen it?

As happens every night!

 

[AlastairFraser]

I'm not sure we could see a second Channel Tunnel being built on the current alignment, but, with improvements in tunneling technology, we could see a tunnel to the Netherlands perhaps, for more direct HSR connections with the bulk of the continent.
As an example, Broadstairs (UK) is close to a line connected to HS1, and is approx. 88 miles from Westkapelle in Zeeland (NL).

Elsewhere in Europe, Corsica to the Italian mainland may be possible, perhaps Lecce in Apulia to Albania if the EU is serious about a trans Europe HSR network.
Aalborg in northern Denmark to Kristiansand in Norway mag be another possibility, plus Stockholm to Turku/Helsinki via Åland could work.

 

[PTR 444]

Hyperloop may be technically feasible, but is probably too expensive to be practicable as a "people transporter".
Putting a long, large airtight tube underground would cost ££ Billions.
Getting planning consent for a multi-mile long surface-based tube would be almost impossible.
Best use might be for transferring relatively small items between nearby factories, etc.

Wouldn’t this be similar to the pneumatic tube systems that were once common in department stores and offices?

 

[Lucan]

Getting planning consent for a multi-mile long surface-based tube would be almost impossible.

Musk proposed Hyperloop to be raised on Pylons ~10m high (until it reached undulating land), and assumed much of it it would be along the centres of freeways/motorways. But freeways in the USA (Musk's first H-L proposal was for Los Angeles to San Francisco) must be much straighter than UK motorways because the curvatures of the latter would be much too sharp for Hyperloop's 750mph, at least for passengers. It will need to go over towns and villages (or tunnel) because at 750mph it would need an almost straight line route, so in Europe at least they are unavoidable. Even if you accept 0.5g centrigugal acceleration (well above present passenger comfort standards, more like a white-knuckle ride), H-L would need curve radii of more than 23 km in both the horizontal and vertical planes.

Musk also assumed H-L wouldn't have to pay for the land underneath (except the actual pylon footings), and that you won't mind it passing over the top of your house because everyone loves him and his projects. In reality, the only places you could build a H-L would be across a desert, in an authoritarian country, or somewhere you could bribe the planning officers if they have any.

Best use might be for transferring relatively small items between nearby factories, etc.

At 750mph?

Wouldn’t this be similar to the pneumatic tube systems that were once common in department stores and offices?

No. Those systems used low air pressure to propel the capsule. H-L would use a linear induction motor to hurl it up to speed and then brake it at the other end. In between, Musk's H-L would ride on an air cushion "like an air hockey table" (Musk's own words - in a vacuum?? I kid you not). Such H-L projects that have gone forward have more realistically settled on maglev, and the next stage no doubt would be to dispense with the astronomically expensive vacuum tube and its associated problems, and become an ordinary open-air maglev. I expect that his fans would still claim that Musk invented it though.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm not sure we could see a second Channel Tunnel being built on the current alignment, but, with improvements in tunneling technology, we could see a tunnel to the Netherlands perhaps, for mere direct HSR connections with the bulk of the continent.
As an example, Broadstairs (UK) is close to a line connected to HS1, and is approx. 88 miles from Westkapelle in Zeeland (NL).

No chance. Tunnelling technology hasnt advanced that much in the last 35 years, certainly not enough to make a near tripling of distance remotely worthwhile.

 

[AlastairFraser]

No chance. Tunnelling technology hasnt advanced that much in the last 35 years, certainly not enough to make a near tripling of distance remotely worthwhile.

I didn't say when this would happen - but economically the routes that I suggested would likely be the most viable.

 

[HSTEd]

No chance. Tunnelling technology hasnt advanced that much in the last 35 years, certainly not enough to make a near tripling of distance remotely worthwhile.

I don't recall people building 54 foot diameter tunnel boring machines 35 years ago! Tunneling technology has advanced substantially, indeed prima facie the 39m max depth of a Broadstairs-Netherlands crossing might even make an immersed tube solution achievable given projects like Fehmarn belt and the Marmaray tunnel in Istanbul.
I agree tripling the length is rather silly though, especially considering it would save about 6 minutes at 300km/h.

Tunnel boring machine dug tunnels continue to trend downwards in relative costs and diameters continue to climb, although I doubt you would justify a second crossing when they can't even fill the first one. Unless you could somehow build a drive through connection for road vehicles

 

[AlastairFraser]

I don't recall people building 54 foot diameter tunnel boring machines 35 years ago! Tunneling technology has advanced substantially, indeed prima facie the 39m max depth of a Broadstairs-Netherlands crossing might even make an immersed tube solution achievable given projects like Fehmarn belt and the Marmaray tunnel in Istanbul.
I agree tripling the length is rather silly though, especially considering it would save about 6 minutes at 300km/h.

Tunnel boring machine dug tunnels continue to trend downwards in relative costs and diameters continue to climb, although I doubt you would justify a second crossing when they can't even fill the first one. Unless you could somehow build a drive through connection for road vehicles

Well, with the current Channel Tunnel, high speed to the Netherlands, Germany and further on is less viable, but with a 5 mile connection to a classic NS line, which itself connects to HSL Zuid and the Betuweroute towards Germany, you could take a significant amount of time sensitive UK-Continent freight.
There are motorways/dual carriageways in close proximity both ways (A58 in NL is approx 11 miles away on a reasonable route from Westkapelle and the A229, a high quality dual carriageway that connects to the M2 is 2 miles away from Broadstairs at Cliffsend) - it's more about political palatability of new road tunnels.
I don't envisage this being built before 2050, however the Chinese are planning a tunnel crossing the Bohai Strait from Dalian to Yantai in Northeastern China.
Maybe this could provide proof of concept that it is possible - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohai_Strait_tunnel_project

 

[dgl]

No chance. Tunnelling technology hasnt advanced that much in the last 35 years, certainly not enough to make a near tripling of distance remotely worthwhile.

I thought Musk had got the building of tunnels a lot cheaper and so made longer tunnels feasible, oh wait his cheaper tunnelling is simply smaller and simpler, you really think that the current tunnelling experts know a bit more than Mr. Musk!

Also I don't think I'd wan't to be in a tunnel in a vehicle as slapped together as a Tesla, when you've got fancy flush handles and suicide doors and said handles don't line up it's not a quality product, my Sister's Indian built Micra has better panel gaps and the doors actually line up with each other, and that's not a premium vehicle. Amazingly he doesn't seem to actually know that much about manufacturing despite his claims.

All these Musk ideas seem to be ways of getting him exposure and get people working on his madcap ideas that doesn't cost him anything when it fails, reinventing the wheel is all well and good, unless said reinvention is the square wheel, the hyperloop is that square wheel, you could make it work but it'd always be significantly worse than a round wheel.

 

[Bald Rick]

Tunnel boring machine dug tunnels continue to trend downwards in relative costs and diameters continue to climb,

But crucially, not significantly longer. The Channel Tunnel is still the world’s longest undersea crossing.

 

[zwk500]

But crucially, not significantly longer. The Channel Tunnel is still the world’s longest undersea crossing.

Presumably evacuation of an undersea tunnel much longer than the Chunnel is as big a concern, if not more so, than the technical ability to dig that big a hole. That, money and politics (international and domestic).

 

[Bald Rick]

Presumably evacuation of an undersea tunnel much longer than the Chunnel is as big a concern, if not more so, than the technical ability to dig that big a hole. That, money and politics (international and domestic).

Pretty much sums it up!

 

[DerekC]

But crucially, not significantly longer. The Channel Tunnel is still the world’s longest undersea crossing.

The Seikan Tunnel in Japan is a little longer but has a shorter undersea section. However what Seikan does have is two emergency evacuation stations at the shorelines of the Tsugaru Strait, which shortens the effective length of the tunnel for evacuation purposes. So reinforces the point that @zwk500 and @Bald Rick are making - a longer undersea crossing than Channel Tunnel would be problematic.

Another (entirely irrelevant) point about Seikan that I hadn't thought about before is that it's mixed gauge.

 

[DaleCooper]

That looks like the end of that bad dream.

High-speed train company Hyperloop One shuts down

Based on an Elon Musk idea, with previous backing from Richard Branson, the firm will close this month.

www.bbc.co.uk

The company which became well known for its idea of shooting people hundreds of miles an hour through a vacuum has shut down.
The aim of Hyperloop One, based on an idea by Elon Musk, was to dramatically cut journey times.
It has previously received backing from Virgin founder Richard Branson, but he pulled out last year.
The firm will lay off its remaining staff by the end of the year

 

[Lucan]

Good news about Hyperloop One, enough money has been wasted on this nonsense already. Hyperloop One was Branson's pitiful effort to be like his friend and idol, Elon Musk, and be his factotum.

However it is not the end of it. The EU for one is still in love with the idea. Here is a brief recent example of the buzzword BS coming from them :

The European Union is in need of more sustainable transport to reach its climate goals ...
Eventually, a European hyperloop network will contribute to:
• Social inclusion by making amenities - including education, health care, and jobs - more
accessible regardless of where EU citizens live.
• Improved environment through less emissions, reduced noise pollution and more habitat for
wildlife.

[Ref : https://www.europarl.europa.eu/cmsdata/277661/HDP position paper European Parliament elections 2024.pdf EU Hyperloop Position Paper ]

Social inclusion? They are obviously unaware of the tiny carrying capacity of H-L. Using maximum possible values, a H-L tube would carry about 15% of a high speed railway track according to Musk's wildly optimistic estimate for the former, or about 4% if being realistic. And yeah, sure I will go the the doctors on H-L, and having waited for 18 months to see a specialist, saving 30 minutes on the journey will be really really important, assuming the H-L terminii are anywhere near me and the specialist.

As for the environment, the authors cannot ever have seen the bare earth and rubbish dumps under a typical motorway viaduct, or for some reason they think that under a pair of H-L tubes will be any different. They also don't seem to have heard that trains can run on electricity too.

These people have swallowed, hook line and sinker, the assertions Musk made in his 2013 Hyperloop Alpha "White Paper", which was partly a popular science style fantasy and partly an extensive anti-rail rant. Its real purpose was to stop the Californian high speed rail project and I'm not certain that Musk was even serious about H-L himself. But the H-L enthusiasts think that Musk is a genius rather than the salesman, media personality and cult leader he really is, and they won't give up their fantasy easily.

 

[Technologist]

Good news about Hyperloop One, enough money has been wasted on this nonsense already. Hyperloop One was Branson's pitiful effort to be like his friend and idol, Elon Musk, and be his factotum.

However it is not the end of it. The EU for one is still in love with the idea. Here is a brief recent example of the buzzword BS coming from them :


[Ref : https://www.europarl.europa.eu/cmsdata/277661/HDP position paper European Parliament elections 2024.pdf EU Hyperloop Position Paper ]

Social inclusion? They are obviously unaware of the tiny carrying capacity of H-L. Using maximum possible values, a H-L tube would carry about 15% of a high speed railway track according to Musk's wildly optimistic estimate for the former, or about 4% if being realistic. And yeah, sure I will go the the doctors on H-L, and having waited for 18 months to see a specialist, saving 30 minutes on the journey will be really really important, assuming the H-L terminii are anywhere near me and the specialist.

As for the environment, the authors cannot ever have seen the bare earth and rubbish dumps under a typical motorway viaduct, or for some reason they think that under a pair of H-L tubes will be any different. They also don't seem to have heard that trains can run on electricity too.

These people have swallowed, hook line and sinker, the assertions Musk made in his 2013 Hyperloop Alpha "White Paper", which was partly a popular science style fantasy and partly an extensive anti-rail rant. Its real purpose was to stop the Californian high speed rail project and I'm not certain that Musk was even serious about H-L himself. But the H-L enthusiasts think that Musk is a genius rather than the salesman, media personality and cult leader he really is, and they won't give up their fantasy easily.

Elon Musk is an engineer and a spectacularly effective engineering leader.

Anyone who is an engineer in automotive, aerospace and adjacent fields and who's ever been part of a large project can work that out from watching him in an interview with a sector specific journalist or enthusiast.

He's not just a C-suite suit or a BS marketer like Branson. You can actually see him working the answers to obscure or hypothetical questions out from first principles in his head.

Cognitively (both intelligence and knowledge) if you threw 20 stones into an Rolls-Royce/BAe office you'd hit at least one Elon Musk, the difference is his level of determination and focus (see trail of destruction that is his private life). Oh and the totally outlier companies he has created.

Regarding Hyperloop, yes it's just something he threw out there. He was very upfront about it being not finished and that he wasn't going to do anything with it. However the PR has got millions of pounds invested and thousands of engineers interested. The fact that the early movers have lost their shirt is not really a surprise, that doesn't mean that many of the ideas aren't valid and no useful technology has been developed. It also means that Elon Musk crowd sourced his early development work.

For the future I suspect that a few points could be made.

1: Inductrack has now been demonstrated multiple times at full scale. This would open up cheaper ways of delivering Maglev, the most interesting version is from a spin off from the Polish Hyperloop team. A Maglev system which is backward compatible with existing rail vehicles.

Nevomo – the future of transportation | | Homepage

Nevomo, Hyperloop, magnetic leviation, MagRail, railways, maglev, high-speed rail

www.nevomo.tech

2: It very rapidly became obvious that the key technology improvements needed to be in the domain of tunneling hence this was where Elon Musk put his own money and continues to put his money. The TBMs under Vegas started out going at normal velocities but they now do over a mile a week in soil.

3: Every crazy internet idea from the first dotcom bubble has now been done or wrapped up into a profitable product. The same is likely true with this, later companies will hoover up IP and make something work.

 

[The Ham]

Elon Musk is an engineer and a spectacularly effective engineering leader.

Anyone who is an engineer in automotive, aerospace and adjacent fields and who's ever been part of a large project can work that out from watching him in an interview with a sector specific journalist or enthusiast.

He's not just a C-suite suit or a BS marketer like Branson. You can actually see him working the answers to obscure or hypothetical questions out from first principles in his head.

Cognitively (both intelligence and knowledge) if you threw 20 stones into an Rolls-Royce/BAe office you'd hit at least one Elon Musk, the difference is his level of determination and focus (see trail of destruction that is his private life). Oh and the totally outlier companies he has created.

Regarding Hyperloop, yes it's just something he threw out there. He was very upfront about it being not finished and that he wasn't going to do anything with it. However the PR has got millions of pounds invested and thousands of engineers interested. The fact that the early movers have lost their shirt is not really a surprise, that doesn't mean that many of the ideas aren't valid and no useful technology has been developed. It also means that Elon Musk crowd sourced his early development work.

For the future I suspect that a few points could be made.

1: Inductrack has now been demonstrated multiple times at full scale. This would open up cheaper ways of delivering Maglev, the most interesting version is from a spin off from the Polish Hyperloop team. A Maglev system which is backward compatible with existing rail vehicles.

Nevomo – the future of transportation | | Homepage

Nevomo, Hyperloop, magnetic leviation, MagRail, railways, maglev, high-speed rail

www.nevomo.tech

2: It very rapidly became obvious that the key technology improvements needed to be in the domain of tunneling hence this was where Elon Musk put his own money and continues to put his money. The TBMs under Vegas started out going at normal velocities but they now do over a mile a week in soil.

3: Every crazy internet idea from the first dotcom bubble has now been done or wrapped up into a profitable product. The same is likely true with this, later companies will hoover up IP and make something work.

The problem is that most engineers agree that hyperloop isn't going to deliver the list if things said of it.

If you want capacity you'd look to rail, as you just can't (safely) move 3,300 people an hour between London and Manchester when you're only seating 20 if them in a pod at a time, as you'd need to launch one every 22 seconds (that's cost together than aircraft at Heathrow). Even doubling the size of the pod to 40 people and it's 44 seconds between pods.

Conversely HS lines can move that many as well as serve other cities. Even at 12tph (and 15tph is more than viable), that's 4 cities each with their own 3tph services - whilst that would add cost to (say )you'd be able to then share the other lines with other services.

For example, HS2 could (for not much more) serve Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester with direct services on totally new lines (we'll cut off the Eastern sections for now) with 3tph from London to each of them with capacity to spare. Depending on the layout there's fairly good chance you could run 3tph between Birmingham and each of Manchester and Liverpool. That's 5 city pairings for effectively one line (with the potential for more, in that you could add Leeds which could add a further 3 city pairings - London Leeds, Birmingham Leeds and Liverpool/Manchester Leeds).

Hyperloop would struggle with 1 city pairings, and so would have to be a fraction (like 1/5th) of the cost to build each tube, to even get close. Whilst HS2 is expensive, very little of it is in tunnels.

I'm sorry, but like the idea for electric aircraft being able to have the capacity of a railway station you've previously highlighted, the numbers just don't add up.

Yes if you're selling the idea to a place where there's no railways or public transport it looks like it's a great idea (as cars are very inefficient) add you can go from one lane of traffic carrying at most circa 2,000 people (assuming no junctions reducing capacity) to a line carrying this many but away from the other cars more easily. Try doing it somewhere where people (especially engineers) understand about capacity and the ideas get filled in the sci-fi tray.

 

[jon0844]

I have to say I don't believe Elon to be an engineer at all. A visionary perhaps, but now proven to be a total narcissist going down the rabbit hole of Jews controlling the world, the great replacement theory (and visible support for people with extremely racist views), culture wars and everything else you'd expect from Donald Trump, Nigel Farage et al.

People say he's going to change the world, and that's what I'm worried about. When he emboldens some vile racist by liking their post or RT'ing it to EVERY X user (as he does regularly; even if you don't follow him - there it is in your feed that keeps changing from Following to For You) he is certainly helping to change the world. By letting Alex Jones and other deplorables back on his platform, we're now giving a voice to the worst people - and as time goes on we're hearing more and more whistleblowers come out to say what it is/was like working at Tesla and SpaceX under him.

Hyperloop is and was never going to happen. Even if it could be made to work, the throughput is as crap as his tiny little road tunnels with Wish.com colour changing LEDs, and after the first catastrophic decompression with everyone dead, that would be the end of that.

I wonder how he's doing with his plan to colonize Mars? I really wish he'd hurry up and fly there.

 

[Lucan]

Elon Musk is an engineer and a spectacularly effective engineering leader.

Anyone who is an engineer in automotive, aerospace and adjacent fields and who's ever been part of a large project can work that out from watching him in an interview with a sector specific journalist or enthusiast.

He's not just a C-suite suit or a BS marketer like Branson.

Well I am a qualified engineer who has been the lead in some heavy engineering megaprojects. At best, Musk comes over to me as similar to the engineering company reps whom I have often dealt with - basically a salesman with enough technical knowledge to get by. At worst, he sounds like a technically minded amateur. He has no engineering qualifications, although a physics degree. I agree that Musk does make an effective factory manager, by a lot of butt-kicking I've heard.

As an example of his technical incompetence, in his Hyperloop proposal the Hyperloop Alpha "white paper" Musk says the tubes will need no thermal expansion joints because "dampers" between the support pylons and the tubes will absorb "the small length changes between pylons", yet admits that telescoping tubes will needed at the end stations to "address the cumulative length change". In fact the cumulative thermal length variation of a typical inter-city H-L tube will be of the order of 100 m or more over the seasons (Musk mentions no figures). You have to ask what sort of "damper" will accommodate 100m of movement on for example the last pylon before the terminus, but Musk says no more about them, but instead shows pages of colourful diagrams of stresses in the pylons, as if he thinks that such simple stress calculations are impressive. On the other hand, Musk claims that railways need "frequent expansion joints".

As for Branson, he is just an idiot.

 

[Meerkat]

Supersonic travel won't be back in anything but a few trans ocean uses as the fundamental issue why Concorde only did Trans Atlantic in regular service hasn't been solved. Countries don't want sonic booms over land because of the issues they cause

I believe the clever folk are coming up with designs that reduce/eliminate sonic boom to acceptable levels, but can’t remember where I saw it.

A second channel tunnel, going to Belgium would be a brilliant as it would avoid the strike prone and awkward French. Might even get good levels of freight going to justify a freight railway to the Midlands from Germany……
In terms of length doesnt the Channel get shallow in the middle to the north of the Straits? Start from both ends, dump the spoil in the middle to create an island, then dig down and set more TBMs off outward from the middle. Spoil builds a big island to be used as a resort, airport, prison camp, power station, whatever.

 

[Northumbriana]

Build a large new island between East Anglia, Belgium and the Netherlands and be connected to all three countries by tunnelled railways. Call it Beneuk and build new cities on it.