SeatFrog upgrade sold for non-existent train?

[Johnny Lewis]

This afternoon, (Saturday 12 March) a friend of mine is returning from Southport to Leeds using a flexible ticket, so has elected to travel via Liverpool Lime Street.

He has bid for, and successfully won a SeatFrog upgrade for just £5 on the 15.54 Liverpool Lime Street to Newcastle. All good, until...
...he arrived at Lime Street to see that the 15.54 is cancelled.

However, looking at Real Time Trains, the entire schedule has disappeared for today, together with the inward working which arrives at Liverpool at 15.02. So they are not shown as cancelled, they have just been removed! (They are both shown as running next Saturday so they ARE part of the "normal" TPE timetable).

TPE have told him that the SeatFrog upgrade is NOT automatically valid on the next train - in this case, the 16.54. He has now "won" an upgrade for £9 on the 16.54 which seems a bit unfair (I appreciate that £9 is still cheap, but that's not really the point here).

My question is: how was SeatFrog able to sell the upgrade for the 15.54, which was only confirmed 30 minutes before the scheduled departure, when it must have already been known by then that the service wouldn't run?

Secondly, why is the SeatFrog upgrade not automatically transferred to the next available train, in the same way that the train ticket would be (even a train-specific Advance ticket would automatically be valid on the next train in the event of a cancellation)?

 

[Watershed]

This afternoon, (Saturday 12 March) a friend of mine is returning from Southport to Leeds using a flexible ticket, so has elected to travel via Liverpool Lime Street.

He has bid for, and successfully won a SeatFrog upgrade for just £5 on the 15.54 Liverpool Lime Street to Newcastle. All good, until...
...he arrived at Lime Street to see that the 15.54 is cancelled.

However, looking at Real Time Trains, the entire schedule has disappeared for today, together with the inward working which arrives at Liverpool at 15.02. So they are not shown as cancelled, they have just been removed! (They are both shown as running next Saturday so they ARE part of the "normal" TPE timetable).

TPE have told him that the SeatFrog upgrade is NOT automatically valid on the next train - in this case, the 16.54. He has now "won" an upgrade for £9 on the 16.54 which seems a bit unfair (I appreciate that £9 is still cheap, but that's not really the point here).

My question is: how was SeatFrog able to sell the upgrade for the 15.54, which was only confirmed 30 minutes before the scheduled departure, when it must have already been known by then that the service wouldn't run?

Secondly, why is the SeatFrog upgrade not automatically transferred to the next available train, in the same way that the train ticket would be (even a train-specific Advance ticket would automatically be valid on the next train in the event of a cancellation)?

The 15:54 (and its inbound working) has been "P coded" today, i.e. it was cancelled by 10pm the night before and therefore doesn't count against the punctuality/cancellation statistics.

The new National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) claim this also means that the operator isn't liable for any delay compensation, but I doubt whether this is a lawful clause, for various reasons which have been discussed in other threads.

Unfortunately it seems Seatfrog don't pick up late-notice changes and therefore they still offered an upgrade on the cancelled train.

As the upgrade is specific to one train, it is clearly the case that it is valid on the next train if the booked service is cancelled. It would be contrary to consumer and contract law to simply retain sums paid when no service has been provided.

Therefore I would write to customer services and complain about being incorrectly advice, asking for reimbursement for the unnecessarily purchased upgrade. Your friend should also claim Delay Repay.

 

[njr001]

When I travelled from Paddington to Westbury with a Seatfrog upgrade and the train was cancelled the TM of the next train was happy for me to travel first class. I received delay repay for the journey and Seatfrog I‘m fairly sure also refunded me for the delay.

 

[Mainline421]

I don't see why it wouldn't be valid on the next available service. I did this once on TPE when the service I bid on was cancelled and both guards accepted it no questions asked.

https://help.seatfrog.com/hc/en-gb/...t-happens-if-my-trip-is-delayed-or-cancelled- appears to confirm the upgrade remains valid also, just without a guaranteed seat.

 

[Andy Pacer]

However, looking at Real Time Trains, the entire schedule has disappeared for today, together with the inward working which arrives at Liverpool at 15.02. So they are not shown as cancelled, they have just been removed! (They are both shown as running next Saturday so they ARE part of the "normal" TPE timetable).

Incidentally the journey in question is shown as cancelled in Real Time Trains

 

[Watershed]

Incidentally the journey in question is shown as cancelled in Real Time Trains

Well that's because it is - it's effective a type of cancellation, with reason code PG.

 

[Johnny Lewis]

It definitely wasn't shown in RTT when I posted my original comments! Nor was the inward train.

 

[Kite159]

It definitely wasn't shown in RTT when I posted my original comments! Nor was the inward train.

They don't show by default as you have to press the 'CAN' button on the detailed menu (next to WTT, VAR & STP). That should bring up the trains which got pre cancelled the night before

 

[Watershed]

That should bring up the trains which got pre cancelled the night before

It also shows any trains which were cancelled ahead of time (e.g. as part of engineering work plans).

Timetable History gives the best indication of what changes were made and when. If you're struggling to find a particular train you'll need the UID - a 6 character code as shown in the RTT link here - https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C05165/2022-03-12/detailed

Then enter that into the Timetable History link - http://timetablehistory.com/times.aspx?uid=C05165&date=20220312 - together with the date in YYYYMMDD format.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Well that's because it is - it's effective a type of cancellation, with reason code PG.

"Well" I was pointing it out for the benefit of the OP who found they weren't shown as cancelled when they looked.