Seat Reservations

[BestWestern]

I agree that the main issue with it all is capacity, and in particular the decidedly iffy practise of allowing trains to be Advance-booked to the hilt despite the TOC knowing full well that there will be huge numbers of walk-up and season users also travelling; not ideal :cry:

Season tickets are discounted, but in a different way, the discount being for your loyalty not simply because you are willing to specify your jorney time in return for having hunted down a bargain price fare.

Once again, I do not feel that anybody on a train is better, of a more 'elite' passenger group, or more deserving of their place on board than anybody else, with the obvious exception of those intent on paying no fare. I don't feel that any ticket should come with an automatic reservation, I feel instead that reservations should be optional, for a small fee. That seems only fair when the trains on which we all travel are regularly full to the brim. Any concept of a particular customer group having a God-given right to a seat just doesn't stand up in that environment. If you want a guarunteed seat, pay a little - and I mean little, as in a couple of quid max - for that luxury. A seat is a luxury on any train with a substantial number of standees whether we like it or not. Bottom line though, if you're paying pennies that luxury shouldn't be automatically afforded to you, just doesn't make sense.

 

[starrymarkb]

I agree that the main issue with it all is capacity, and in particular the decidedly iffy practise of allowing trains to be Advance-booked to the hilt despite the TOC knowing full well that there will be huge numbers of walk-up and season users also travelling; not ideal :cry:

Season tickets are discounted, but in a different way, the discount being for your loyalty not simply because you are willing to specify your jorney time in return for having hunted down a bargain price fare.

Once again, I do not feel that anybody on a train is better, of a more 'elite' passenger group, or more deserving of their place on board than anybody else, with the obvious exception of those intent on paying no fare. I don't feel that any ticket should come with an automatic reservation, I feel instead that reservations should be optional, for a small fee. That seems only fair when the trains on which we all travel are regularly full to the brim. Any concept of a particular customer group having a God-given right to a seat just doesn't stand up in that environment. If you want a guarunteed seat, pay a little - and I mean little, as in a couple of quid max - for that luxury. A seat is a luxury on any train with a substantial number of standees whether we like it or not. Bottom line though, if you're paying pennies that luxury shouldn't be automatically afforded to you, just doesn't make sense.

But remember that the cheap seats are targeted at people who'd use coaches or budget airlines - Both of which offer guaranteed seats (and National Express include it in their marketing)

 

[BestWestern]

But remember that the cheap seats are targeted at people who'd use coaches or budget airlines - Both of which offer guaranteed seats (and National Express include it in their marketing)

Indeed, but neither coaches nor planes can operate with the aisles crammed with people stood up!! A useful comparison though; I wonder if British Airways would happily inconvenience full-price passengers for the benefit of those flying on bargain tickets??!

 

[mickey]

A useful comparison though; I wonder if British Airways would happily inconvenience full-price passengers for the benefit of those flying on bargain tickets??!

They sort of do, but only because they use other measures than the price paid. If a flight is overbooked and too many people turn up the first people to be given a guaranteed seat are frequent fliers with the airline's (and its alliance partners') own programme, regardless of the price paid (i.e. many people fly business class on business but the cheapest on holiday and would be treated better than those who have paid a higher economy fare). Next will be a strict time order - those who check in earliest (or in the US arrive at the gate earliest) will be given priority over those who arrive later, even if they're on time. So yes, sometimes they do. Unless it's written in the Ts+Cs that you'll be treated like dirt if you don't pay enough they have to find some other reason!

 

[BestWestern]

They sort of do, but only because they use other measures than the price paid. If a flight is overbooked and too many people turn up the first people to be given a guaranteed seat are frequent fliers with the airline's (and its alliance partners') own programme, regardless of the price paid (i.e. many people fly business class on business but the cheapest on holiday and would be treated better than those who have paid a higher economy fare). Next will be a strict time order - those who check in earliest (or in the US arrive at the gate earliest) will be given priority over those who arrive later, even if they're on time. So yes, sometimes they do. Unless it's written in the Ts+Cs that you'll be treated like dirt if you don't pay enough they have to find some other reason!

Hehe, they always find a way, bless em Still beats Ryanair though I'm sure!!

 

[NotScheduled]

I agree that the main issue with it all is capacity, and in particular the decidedly iffy practise of allowing trains to be Advance-booked to the hilt despite the TOC knowing full well that there will be huge numbers of walk-up and season users also travelling; not ideal :cry:

Season tickets are discounted, but in a different way, the discount being for your loyalty not simply because you are willing to specify your jorney time in return for having hunted down a bargain price fare.

Once again, I do not feel that anybody on a train is better, of a more 'elite' passenger group, or more deserving of their place on board than anybody else, with the obvious exception of those intent on paying no fare. I don't feel that any ticket should come with an automatic reservation, I feel instead that reservations should be optional, for a small fee. That seems only fair when the trains on which we all travel are regularly full to the brim. Any concept of a particular customer group having a God-given right to a seat just doesn't stand up in that environment. If you want a guarunteed seat, pay a little - and I mean little, as in a couple of quid max - for that luxury. A seat is a luxury on any train with a substantial number of standees whether we like it or not. Bottom line though, if you're paying pennies that luxury shouldn't be automatically afforded to you, just doesn't make sense.

My apologies if my previous post was a little heated. Having had the experience of turning up without a seat reservation on busy services with a walk on ticket I know it's a horrible experience. Seat reservations in advance have replaced a horrible experience I dreaded with a lovely enjoyable journey in return for planning in advance.

I understand where you're coming from. On peak services, I can certainly see how seats being a luxury that people should perhaps pay a little more for while those happy to stand could not might be an option. On non-peak services where there is plenty of space, things could stay as they are without problem.

With what you propose though, most people would likely be happy to pay advance+£2 for a seat, the price would still be cheaper than a walk on ticket, the seats would still be taken and the situation would be the same, apart from a bit of extra revenue for the operators.

What would be nice is some kind of indicator on booking how busy a service is, as in how many advance tickets and seat reservations are made. When you're a flexible traveller, you'd be happy to take a less busy train at a different time and it would benefit everyone, but there's no easy way to know. Just today, I've discovered a 10:06 train is nearly desserted compared to the 10:22 train to the same place a little later which is usually a lot more busy.

 

[mickey]

What would be nice is some kind of indicator on booking how busy a service is, as in how many advance tickets and seat reservations are made. When you're a flexible traveller, you'd be happy to take a less busy train at a different time and it would benefit everyone, but there's no easy way to know

Where a particular train is always or very often busy it can be marked 'reservation recommended' in the timetable. Not many TOCs do this now but it's a sign that people should expect to have to stand unless they book ahead, and encourages them to think about being more flexible. It's not a counting clock or anything that sophisticated, but it can be useful nonetheless!

 

[trainophile]

If they start charging for reservations again then the train staff would have to be prepared to enforce moving "squatters" out of reserved seats. I doubt they would relish that prospect, especially (sexist remark alert) women staff, should they find themselves having to confront a crowd of inebriated football fans.

ATW don't issue seat res's automatically with Advance tickets now, and it seems to work pretty well. Actually I prefer the freedom of choosing my own seat rather than being perhaps crammed in next to a "large" person or someone who has loads of luggage that they insist on keeping with them.

 

[bus man]

Sorry if this as been covered

One of the problems i find as a passanger is the huge number of reserved seats that arnt taken up. If we use the train at work we have to book tickets through an agency they alwasy come with reserved seats but no where on the order form does it allow you to indicate which train you will be using . Therefore the reservations are for radom trains that we never use , anyone else experiance this ?

 

[Greenback]

Yes, the agency my former employer used used to reserve seats automatically - most of the time they were not used as we had open returns and could not predict which train we were catching back. As you say, there seemed to be no way to stop them doing this!

 

[philjo]

the agency we use does have some flexibility on this.

If we specify exact trains for both outward & return journey they generally issue advance tickets for those services where possible unless the price is not much different from the flexible ticket.
If you don't specify a train time you will get a flexible ticket without reservations unless you asked for a reservation.
I generally specify exactly which tickets/trains etc I want to use & so far have always got what I asked for.

 

[Greenback]

The problem may have been down to the fact that the HR department used to book through the agency - we did not have the option to book our own tickets and state our own requirements. You had to submit a form to HR in which you had to state what trains you thought you would use - although they never booked Advance tickets!

Hopefully things have changed now! Are there still as many unused reservations as a couple of years ago? My perception is that there are fewer overall.

 

[ApAp]

When NXEC introduced a reservation fee for standard class passengers (advance passengers still got free reservations as it was a compulsory part of their ticket) they received so much bad publicity that EC quickly scrapped it.

I supported the reservation charge, it made those with flexible tickets decide whether they really wanted to make a reservation and in theory would reduce the number of unoccupied reserved seats.

As for 'Reservations Recommended' in the timetables, it looks like East Coast marks all their services with this, whereas most TOCs use 'Reservations Available' does any TOC actually pick out their busiest services for the Reservations Recommended designation?

Another oddity is VT seem to list their services as 'Restaurant in First Class only' (shown as a knife and fork in a box on WebTIS), presumably they decided they needed to highlight their first class offering and out of the limited symbols available they used that one, but I think it's highly misleading.

 

[Wolfie]

It is not rubbish, it is common sense. If you are paying for a heavily discounted, promotional product - that is what Advance tickets are - you should not receive preferential treatment to those who are paying full price, on top of the heavy discount you have already had. That is an obvious concept and would apply anywhere, not just on a train. Why on earth should a season holder have to wait for the next train to enable those paying pittance to travel instead? The one train Advance ticket users have 'tied' themselves to should not be one to which full-price ticket holders are then denied access. Perhaps you should suggest that to a few commuters who pay four-figure sums for their season tickets and see what their response is?!

My bold

Perhaps because, as has been repeatedly stated on here, season ticket holders in actual terms pay the least of any traveller for their journeys....

(try working out the cost per journey!!!)

 

[Greenback]

When I renew my season ticket, I think I will log every journey I make on it, and then see how much my travel cost compared to the Anytime Day Return. I get the feeling it will be less than half the price!

Sadly, I can't compare it to an Advance as the journey is too short!

 

[gordonthemoron]

OTOH trains which are mostly used by season ticket holders are unlikely to have (m)any advance tickets?

 

[Greenback]

Not necessarily, if you look at Reading to London, for example. There may not be the very cheapest Advances on trains from South Wales, but there will be some available that people may consider to be too cheap compared to the Anytime Return.

Someone gets on at 0810 or so with their £2k+ season and can't get a seat because of people with a £40 ticket from Swansea may feel aggrieved.

My point though is that the season ticket will be used on average for 220 return trips, which means that they are in effect paying a lot less than the Anytiem Day Return, per day. If it's used for more trips, then the savings are even greater. So the question is whether season ticket holders should feel they have the right to a seat for a 25 minute journey, at the expense of those who have travelled for a longer journey?

 

[Zoe]

There's nothing to stop commuters buying advance fares for their journeys rather than using a season ticket. They would also be guaranteed a seat.

 

[Greenback]

I am certain it would end up costing them more than a season ticket, thus disproving once and for all that Advance ticket holders pay the lowest fares on the railway!

 

[route101]

Im on the 0737am Virgin Pendolino from Glasgow Central to Preston tomrrow morning , i know im on 18 A Coach B which according to the seating plan is a limited or no view backwards seat:roll: Ill be looking for another seat.

 

[Zoe]

Im on the 0737am Virgin Pendolino from Glasgow Central to Preston tomrrow morning , i know im on 18 A Coach B which according to the seating plan is a limited or no view backwards seat:roll: Ill be looking for another seat.

Is it an advance fare? If so then you are breaking the terms and conditions of your ticket by sitting in another seat.

 

[route101]

Is it an advance fare? If so then you are breaking the terms and conditions of your ticket by sitting in another seat.

Yes Advance to Preston. Ive sat in other seats a fair few times and never been questioned .

 

[Zoe]

Yes Advance to Preston. Ive sat in other seats a fair few times and never been questioned .

Most guards don't enforce it. I'm just saying that in theory you could be asked to move to your booked seat.

 

[Old Timer]

My point though is that the season ticket will be used on average for 220 return trips, ....

That was not the BR calculation.The discount applied to the season ticket took into account the following formula.

365 days per year less 104 for non use at weekends = 221, less 8 bank and public holidays = 213, less 20 days for annual leave, sickness, etc. = 193. That was the calculation made available to the public when they asked about refunds for annual leave.

As a general guide we used to tell passengers that :

A weekly roughly worked out at 3 1/2 x daily full return.

A monthly worked out at roughly 3 1/2 x weekly season

A three monthly worked out at roughly 3 1/2 x monthly season

Most guards don't enforce it. I'm just saying that in theory you could be asked to move to your booked seat.

Absolutely correct. I find however that it is always worth speaking to the Train Manager out of politeness, as when I am in the UK I like to be able to sit at a four-bay and spread out a little rather than a two bay.

 

[yorksrob]

My bold

Perhaps because, as has been repeatedly stated on here, season ticket holders in actual terms pay the least of any traveller for their journeys....

(try working out the cost per journey!!!)

Ah, but by that token a season ticket holder will probably contribute more money over all to the railway than a passenger using a non-discounted walk on fare.

I have to say, I would have thought that those using advanced fares probably do so primarily for the price rather than the seat reservation. Infact, I suspect the majority of them aren't particularly bothered where they sit (or would rather take the chance when they get there), so I think the simplest solution would be to tie down advanced ticket holders to a particular train but only provide reservations to any valid ticket holder that requests them on a first come first served basis. That way advance ticket holders who don't care about a seat can fit in where they can whilst the high payers can book a nice plush one if they're worried (and visa versa).

The down side for me personally would be that I would lose the opportunity to bag one of the clearly unused reserved seats which are routinely ignored by less experienced travellers but I suppose you can't have everything.

 

[northwichcat]

As a general guide we used to tell passengers that :

A weekly roughly worked out at 3 1/2 x daily full return.

A monthly worked out at roughly 3 1/2 x weekly season

A three monthly worked out at roughly 3 1/2 x monthly season

It's more like 4.2 times now-a-days. A season ticket isn't usually worth getting if you make 4 return journeys per week in peak times nor if you make 5 return journeys in off-peak times.

 

[me123]

^ Depends on the route. Some round here are less than 4, some (especially the newer ones, such as Airdrie-Edinburgh) are 4 exactly. Even at that, it's still a great deal. Remember that you get unlimited travel with your season ticket, so shopping trips and nights out are also included, as is all travel to intermediate stations.

 

[mickey]

As for 'Reservations Recommended' in the timetables, it looks like East Coast marks all their services with this, whereas most TOCs use 'Reservations Available' does any TOC actually pick out their busiest services for the Reservations Recommended designation?/QUOTE]
I can't check the current one right now but the only TOC I've noticed that has made a particular effort to do this in the last few years is ATW, particularly on evening peak services out of Manchester.

 

[themeone]

In general I've found reservations a waste of time. A lot of people don't seem to sit in their reserved seats, and having travelled on West Coast between London and Manchester / Liverpool a lot recently, it seemed fairly common for the reservation system to be down anyway.

To me it just seems simpler to have all seats unreserved. It is also ridiculous where those with the chepaest advance tickets get a reserved seat, whereas someone paying the most expensive walk-on fare might have to stand.

 

[MKB]

Having no seat reservations would be terrible for non-solo travellers. I've been on trains that are only about 60% full, but you can't get two seats together. During the daily commute, virtually everyone is a single traveller, and people always start a new row, rather than taking a seat next to someone. I come along with my partner, and we can't sit together.

Virgin's display of reservations is poor. We often join a train at Nuneaton going to Liverpool. Because someone else had the seats reserved from Euston to Nuneaton, the two reservations simply says "Reserved: Euston to Liverpool". Because those people didn't sit in those seats, two others thought they could take them and then they are mighty miffed when I ask them to move at Nuneaton. There's often not anywhere else for us (or them) to sit, and so there ends up being a disagreeable confrontation. I hate that Virgin keeps putting me in this situation.

The solution is quite simple - as well as ensuring that all segments of a reservation are shown (like on the old paper ones), also make it easy to get and change seat reservations - by an online or mobile phone application and by machines in the station. I'm sure the OP would have been much happier if, on arrival at Euston, he could have gone to a machine on the concourse and picked a decent seat, rather than taking pot luck once on board. The technology for seat reservations on trains to update in real time is already used elsewhere in the world. Why can't we manage it?