Seat Reservations

[island]

You can't charge an extra fee for something that's compulsory - we've learnt that from budget airlines, where 'headline' fares have to include all unavoidable fees and charges.

I think the suggestion was that Advance tickets should still be tied to a train but only on payment of an extra fee would the holder be given a reserved seat too.

 

[chris89]

I think the suggestion was that Advance tickets should still be tied to a train but only on payment of an extra fee would the holder be given a reserved seat too.

Intresting. But do not agree on that at all. Why should people who book in Advance have to pay extra for a resevation? You have to have one and travel on the exact train or it is not valid.

The system as it is at the moment is fine, Does need some changes as having a back up system. Those who pay on the day, have to sometimes expect they may not get a seat on some of the very busy intercity routes. As others have said should follow the European method and make them mandatory on long distance trains but, reservable up to depature from the Starting station.

Chris

 

[mickey]

I think the suggestion was that Advance tickets should still be tied to a train but only on payment of an extra fee would the holder be given a reserved seat too.

Oh ok, that makes sense. That's how it works on DB IC trains too (not ICE obviously). I'm not sure it would work here though - it would confuse people - and of course, the 'no-seat reservation' still technically guarantees a seat, just not a specific one (or so I believed anyway...)

 

[button_boxer]

Compulsory reservations for long distance trains could actually make things much easier provided you could reserve a seat right up to the point where the train leaves your station (not its origin). This is not as radical an idea as it sounds with online bookings and ticket machines/offices that have a real-time connection to the central reservations database - if all journeys on the train require a reservation then it's not actually necessary to have any indication on the train itself of which seats are reserved between which stations.

How about if you could reserve online or at a ticket machine at the station by entering the serial number of your ticket, and it could check in real time to find a seat that's available on that train and put your name on it. Maybe even let you change your reservation up to the departure time of the originally reserved train. e.g. I have a reservation with ticket 12345 on the 18:30, but realise I will be late leaving work, so at 18:00 I can go online and make a reservation on the 19:30 for the same ticket number, which immediately releases the previous 18:30 reservation. Someone else then turns up at the station at 18:25, puts their ticket into a machine and gets a reservation on the 18:30 for what was previously "my" seat. The fact that the 18:30 from Derby actually started at 17:00 in London is irrelevant to the booking system.

I suppose where this breaks down is on routes which are typically full and standing. I might get to the station at 17:15 and ask for a reservation on the next available service, only to find that that means the 20:25...

 

[gordonthemoron]

Advance tickets (Sparpreise) tickets in germany do not include a reservation. If you want a reserved seat you pay for it. The only trains in germany with compulsory reservations are sleepers.

 

[route101]

I was on a Pendo recently where the electronic reservation display was blank until the train left Gllasgow making the boarding process unpleasant knowing you be bumped out your seat .

 

[craigwilson]

Personally (and this will probably cause Yorkie to have a heart attack) is that unless the train has been completely unreserved by the guard then if you are presented with someone with a reservation for your seat when you have been displaced by someone else then you should go elsewhere. It's not their problem that someone is sitting in your seat, it's yours and either you sort it or find an unreserved seat. Why should they be displaced as well because you can't sort it out? All you are doing by acting like that is exacerbating the problem.

Exactly. This was pretty much what I was trying to say too. I don't think it's being unreasonable if I asked someone who was in my reserved seat to move.

I, on occasion, get the 1900 Euston-Man Picc train on a Friday. Now I know that's a very busy train - to the point where if you haven't reserved, you might not even get on. If I've planned my travel weeks ahead and booked my preferred aisle seat at a table (I'm a tall chap and prefer the vast legroom you get in those seats), I feel I have every right to displace the interloper who's taken my booked seat. Especially when I've shown them my reservation ticket (noting that the over-seat displays don't always switch on immediately).

 

[northwichcat]

Virgin's system quite often allows two people to have reservations for the same train in the same seats. Then passengers try to through people out of their seats and other people have proof that it's 'their' seat.
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Its probably my biggest bugbear on the rail when, on the all too frequent occasions that reservations fail, people try to move others from seats with no reserved display. Any reasonable person wouldn't try and make someone move...

I agree. If you can't get a seat and had a seat reservation inform the conductor, if there's seats elsewhere then use one of them instead - sometimes another seat may be a better one than the one you have had reserved.

Saying that I have seen people who've been unable to find unreserved seats remove reserved tickets from seats.

 

[mickey]

if all journeys on the train require a reservation then it's not actually necessary to have any indication on the train itself of which seats are reserved between which stations.

Very true, which is how it works on Eurostar and TGV services. No one even thinks of sitting in a seat that isn't reserved for them and it all works very well. However, people have become conditioned to it, and it would take a hell of a lot of getting used to here. Plus what happens if people can't get seats together - would they like having to sit apart? And the technology needed is immense (e.g. machines at stations, as you mention - we know how expensive current TVMs are...) - who's going to pay for it? I'm not at all against the idea, but I think it's highly unlikely here.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Advance tickets (Sparpreise) tickets in germany do not include a reservation. If you want a reserved seat you pay for it. The only trains in germany with compulsory reservations are sleepers.

I could have sworn I was told they're compulsory on ICE3 routes - has it changed recently?

 

[Welshman]

How many people actually do this? It's only possible by going to the station two or three times - no ticket office or phone agent will allow you to book two reservations with the same ticket, and I doubt most people can be bothered.

Although I would never do it myself, I suspect it's quite easy - book a return reservation at the departure station, then again for another train at the arrival station, then once more on a seperate occasion at the arrival station for a different return train. Then you have three reservations for each of your three possible return trains! The reservation coupon says "not valid without a travel ticket" but there seems to be no check that ticket No.... has a reservation attached to it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They have to leave a proportion of standard class seats unreserved. On pendolinos this is always coach E.

On busy services the TM often announces it on departure.

Personally I don't always use my reserved seat, but I will always move if someone tells me I'm in theirs. If getting on at an intermediate station, however, I will usually go down the carriage looking for seats that are clearly unoccupied despite being reserved - and nearly always find at least one.

Do they have to leave a proportion of seats unreserved? Sorry, but what is your source for this statement?

It's too late for the TM to announce this fact on departure. You need to know on embarking.

If you don't always use your reserved seat and sit elsewhere I'm afraid you contribute to the problem!

 

[lemonic]

I could have sworn I was told they're compulsory on ICE3 routes - has it changed recently?

ICE3 trains from Frankfurt to Paris have compulsory reservations and I am not sure about ICE Sprinter trains but I think they are the only ICE trains to have compulsory reservations.

 

[mickey]

Although I would never do it myself, I suspect it's quite easy - book a return reservation at the departure station, then again for another train at the arrival station, then once more on a seperate occasion at the arrival station for a different return train. Then you have three reservations for each of your three possible return trains!

As I said, how many people are realistically likely to do this, given the amount of queueing it would entail? I know it's fairly easy, but that's not the point!

I have only once tried to make a different reservation to the one already held, but I made a point of giving the old one back and saying I wanted to change it. I'm fairly sure the person in the ticket office just threw it away though - she definitely didn't cancel it while I was there anyway. It was for a completely different TOC and route so it's not really surprising she wasn't bothered!

If you don't always use your reserved seat and sit elsewhere I'm afraid you contribute to the problem!

I'm well aware that I do, but travelling alone I always seem to end up with the crappy seats! Plus there's usually much more space elsewhere as reservations are always crammed together rather than spaced out sensibly. And there's often someone in my seat anyway, rightly or wrongly. Usually an OAP who has no intention of moving for anyone and thinks everyone else should accommodate him/her just for being old.

Do they have to leave a proportion of seats unreserved? Sorry, but what is your source for this statement?

I've been told this many times by rail staff, but I don't think I have a written source . The bit about marking it in the timetable is common to the whole of Europe - I'll see if I can find it written somewhere.

 

[sheff1]

Compulsory reservations for long distance trains could actually make things much easier provided you could reserve a seat right up to the point where the train leaves your station (not its origin). This is not as radical an idea as it sounds with online bookings and ticket machines/offices that have a real-time connection to the central reservations database - if all journeys on the train require a reservation then it's not actually necessary to have any indication on the train itself of which seats are reserved between which stations.

How about if you could reserve online or at a ticket machine at the station by entering the serial number of your ticket, and it could check in real time to find a seat that's available on that train and put your name on it. Maybe even let you change your reservation up to the departure time of the originally reserved train. e.g. I have a reservation with ticket 12345 on the 18:30, but realise I will be late leaving work, so at 18:00 I can go online and make a reservation on the 19:30 for the same ticket number, which immediately releases the previous 18:30 reservation. Someone else then turns up at the station at 18:25, puts their ticket into a machine and gets a reservation on the 18:30 for what was previously "my" seat. The fact that the 18:30 from Derby actually started at 17:00 in London is irrelevant to the booking system.

This is pretty much exactly what happens with the TGVs in France. You can get/change a reservation from say Cannes to Nice a few minutes before the train arrives even if it has started from Lille 7 hours earlier.

The biggest gripe I have is with people that do have reservations not using them. You end up with a load of unoccupied 'reserved' seats.

I use them if I get what I asked for. But if I reserve a window seat weeks in advance and then end up with a pillar or an aisle seat whilst window seats remain unreserved I will not.
Of course with paper tickets you can take out the one in the seat you don't use. This is not possible with electronic displays.

 

[Flying Snail]

As others have said should follow the European method and make them mandatory on long distance trains but, reservable up to depature from the Starting station.

In the same way as abolishing reservations would put off some passengers, making a significant number of trains compulsory reservation would also put off some people. There are plenty of people who prefer the flexibility of being able to alter their plans as and when they wish without having to queue up to reserve a seat or face the prospect of having a long wait because the next 4 trains have been booked up 3 months in advance.

 

[mickey]

There are plenty of people who prefer the flexibility of being able to alter their plans as and when they wish without having to queue up to reserve a seat or face the prospect of having a long wait because the next 4 trains have been booked up 3 months in advance.

...And we don't have the option of using double-length double-deck trains if we know particular services are likely to be busy.

 

[Greenback]

What we have at the moment is not perfect but it's better than the alternatives!

 

[BestWestern]

There is a definite problem regarding the current system of specific seating reservations being tied in to advance tickets, most obviously with busy services. Customers who pay full price for their journey simply should not have to stand for the benefit of others who are being sold a heavily discounted product intended to help fill seats on supposedly half empty trains. There is an issue with ToC's continuing to bang out these tickets for trains which they know full well will be full to capacity; that isn't the idea. The previously mentioned concept of simply specifying a service rather than a seat is a far more sensible way forward. The ToC's also need to get together and stop issuing every bit of paperwork which accompanies these advance tickets on standard ticket stock; the level of total confusion this causes on a daily basis really does have to be seen to be believed!!

I don't ever have the luxury of a train with electronic reservation info, it's labels all the way for me. This has frequent pitfalls, revolving primarily around problems producing the labels or with the 'wrong' train turning up and no appropriate way of matching labels to seats. When this happens, it has to be a case of running the service as unreserved. Trying to do things properly with no way of informing people that certain seats are off-limits just isn't practical. I always make sure this is put on the CIS screens, and make frequent apologetic announcements on board. It pleases nobody, but there really isn't any other sensible way.

 

[craigwilson]

There is a definite problem regarding the current system of specific seating reservations being tied in to advance tickets, most obviously with busy services. Customers who pay full price for their journey simply should not have to stand for the benefit of others who are being sold a heavily discounted product intended to help fill seats on supposedly half empty trains. There is an issue with ToC's continuing to bang out these tickets for trains which they know full well will be full to capacity; that isn't the idea.

Rubbish. A reservation is a reservation, it doesn't matter what was paid for the ticket. Otherwise all the annual season ticket holders would be justified in expecting holders of off-peak and advance tickets to move.

Remember that if you have a full price ticket you can always just get the next train, or the one before - the advance ticket holders can't - they paid a cut down price because they were prepared to tie themselves to one train well in advance.

Very busy services (such as the first few evening off-peak Virgin services I mentioned earlier in the thread, and probably others on other TOCs too) you can't even buy advances for anyway.

 

[jones_bangor]

...And we don't have the option of using double-length double-deck trains if we know particular services are likely to be busy.

I think this is the crucial point, and why reservations are essential - British rolling stock can't simply be extended by adding a couple of coaches from the sidings on the end as they're almost all fixed formation HST, D/EMU's.

There remains a chronic shortage of seats at peak times, though what can be done about this I'm not sure. I've often wondered whether some 3rd class is the way forward, where 3+2 seating could be brought in to cram more people in.

There certainly needs to be enforcement against luggage on seats - a zero tolerance approach and a full fare charged if seats are occupied? However, I agree more luggage space needs to be provided alongside this.

 

[starrymarkb]

Of course we could always lengthen platforms to enable double sets? 15/16 coach IEPs? Double Pendolinos? Would certainly ease some of the pressure before HS2 gets built/binned

 

[BestWestern]

Rubbish. A reservation is a reservation, it doesn't matter what was paid for the ticket. Otherwise all the annual season ticket holders would be justified in expecting holders of off-peak and advance tickets to move.

Remember that if you have a full price ticket you can always just get the next train, or the one before - the advance ticket holders can't - they paid a cut down price because they were prepared to tie themselves to one train well in advance.

Very busy services (such as the first few evening off-peak Virgin services I mentioned earlier in the thread, and probably others on other TOCs too) you can't even buy advances for anyway.

It is not rubbish, it is common sense. If you are paying for a heavily discounted, promotional product - that is what Advance tickets are - you should not receive preferential treatment to those who are paying full price, on top of the heavy discount you have already had. That is an obvious concept and would apply anywhere, not just on a train. Why on earth should a season holder have to wait for the next train to enable those paying pittance to travel instead? The one train Advance ticket users have 'tied' themselves to should not be one to which full-price ticket holders are then denied access. Perhaps you should suggest that to a few commuters who pay four-figure sums for their season tickets and see what their response is?!

 

[Mike395]

It is not rubbish, it is common sense. If you are paying for a heavily discounted, promotional product - that is what Advance tickets are - you should not receive preferential treatment to those who are paying full price, on top of the heavy discount you have already had. That is an obvious concept and would apply anywhere, not just on a train. Why on earth should a season holder have to wait for the next train to enable those paying pittance to travel instead? The one train Advance ticket users have 'tied' themselves to should not be one to which full-price ticket holders are then denied access. Perhaps you should suggest that to a few commuters who pay four-figure sums for their season tickets and see what their response is?!

The problem with that logic is that, if Advance ticket holders arent always guaranteed a seat on the train, it will put people off buying those tickets, and indeed put people off travelling by train, which is not what we want!

I think Advance tickets actually are a good thing for the railways, and it gets more people in total on the trains - if the main privilege of getting one (a guaranteed place - and the ONLY way you ca nguarantee being able to get on the train is to reserve a seat) is removed, that can only be a bad thing surely?

 

[craigwilson]

The problem with that logic is that, if Advance ticket holders arent always guaranteed a seat on the train, it will put people off buying those tickets, and indeed put people off travelling by train, which is not what we want!

I think Advance tickets actually are a good thing for the railways, and it gets more people in total on the trains - if the main privilege of getting one (a guaranteed place - and the ONLY way you can guarantee being able to get on the train is to reserve a seat) is removed, that can only be a bad thing surely?

+1

I really don't like this "I paid more than you, therefore I deserve a place on this train more than you" mentality.

And like I said, on the busiest services, you can't buy advances anyway. Every one pays full ticket price. So then it's just down to you to book early to get a seat, and if you didn't get a seat, tough luck.

 

[mickey]

I think this is the crucial point, and why reservations are essential - British rolling stock can't simply be extended by adding a couple of coaches from the sidings on the end as they're almost all fixed formation HST, D/EMU's.

It's not that simple - TGVs are just glorified EMUs and you can't just add a few coaches on them either. What I meant though was that where they know certain services are always are usually busy they have the infrastructure in place to handle longer and higher trains, meaning double-duplex sets can be used. It would take a hell of a lot of work to put us in the same position.

There certainly needs to be enforcement against luggage on seats - a zero tolerance approach and a full fare charged if seats are occupied?

Some TMs do make announcements to this effect, and it often does work. If someone is reluctant to move their stuff for me I always ask whether their bag has paid for a seat and no one has ever refused to move it then! However, how can rail staff enforce it properly if they can't get through the carriage?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There is an issue with ToC's continuing to bang out these tickets for trains which they know full well will be full to capacity; that isn't the idea.

TOCs shouldn't be doing this, but sometimes they get more revenue from an expensive Advance ticket than they do a full-open, particularly if there's a lot of possible routes or operators attached to the open ticket, so they're happy to sell as many of them as they can.

 

[chris89]

+1

I really don't like this "I paid more than you, therefore I deserve a place on this train more than you" mentality.

And like I said, on the busiest services, you can't buy advances anyway. Every one pays full ticket price. So then it's just down to you to book early to get a seat, and if you didn't get a seat, tough luck.

Same i don't like it either, making it sound more 'elitest' to me.

I get that enough on other forums, sometimes on UKTS (trimmed down though) and on tech forums.

Over the past nearly 2 years. i've only ever got 1 advance ticket on the B'ham - Edinburgh service, rest the time it is an Off Peak return, and with that resevation is mandatory, well at least seems to me it is.

The saying comes if it ain't broke don't fix it comes to mind, yes it could do with backup systems etc. But making people pay extra will do the oppersit effect and make them less likely to travel by rail, which we all do not want.

Chris

 

[mickey]

Another thing that's just come to me... Unless you say from the outset that you want an open return, Trainline-powered sites insist on giving you a reservation before they'll sell you a ticket. Sometimes though I was only going to tie myself down if I found a cheaper ticket, and if it turns out a SVR will be cheaper I often discarded the reservation and travelled whenever I was ready. ATOS-powered sites stress that you should 'only select a service if you want a reservation', which I now do, but anyone who uses a TL site doesn't see this message and could assume they have to make one. It's likely this is a cause of the problem we've been discussing - so surely a solution is to get them to change their site a little?

 

[NotScheduled]

It is not rubbish, it is common sense. If you are paying for a heavily discounted, promotional product - that is what Advance tickets are - you should not receive preferential treatment to those who are paying full price, on top of the heavy discount you have already had. That is an obvious concept and would apply anywhere, not just on a train. Why on earth should a season holder have to wait for the next train to enable those paying pittance to travel instead? The one train Advance ticket users have 'tied' themselves to should not be one to which full-price ticket holders are then denied access. Perhaps you should suggest that to a few commuters who pay four-figure sums for their season tickets and see what their response is?!

I thought season ticketed were heavily discounted, promotional products? With them, you can go regularly at a discounted price. Plus they have flexibility included in the price, you can go how and when you want as regularly as you want.

On other hand, advance tickets are cheaper because they are completely limited. Not just to an operator, but to a particular route at a particular time. They make sure all kinds of trains at different times are used to help fill them up. But you lose any flexibility with the price drop. On the other hand, open tickets are more expensive, but you get flexibility. Either wawy, they are balanced.

The key thing is you can reserve seats with either. Want flexibility, reserve seats for free and be happy but pay a bit more for the ticket. Want less flexibility and have a cheaper ticket, pay a bit less and get a reserved seat, again for free. There is nothing stopping those paying more for more expensive open tickets from reserving seats.

Saying that those paying less for a more restricted ticket should get less entitlements seems a bit wrong. What about those that pay for a more restricted ticket (e.g. Operator specific), should they get less entitlements too, as these are cheaper tickets?

If people want the flexibility to leave it to last minute, go on any train they want, any operator they want thethey will pay more. Thats one issue. A completely seperate isssue is if they choose not to reserve a seat (which I believe can be done up to 2 hours before the train departs it's first station?) the they won't get one, but they had that choice and option.

Advance forces people to reserve, yes, but anyone can reserve. I think its pointless to try to link reserving seats to ticket types, as theyre completely separate issues.

If the main complaint is that people who book in advance, know what they want to do, and limit themselves to exactly that, with a ticket that can't be refunded or changed and becomes a useless piece of paper upon missing the train get a cheaper ticket compared to an open ticket, that's a different discussion, yet I think the answer to that is straightforward too - the more you pay, the more flexible it is and the more open it is to you. The less you pay, the more flexibility you give up and the more you fit in with what the rail operator wants, but in turn you get a cheaper ticket.

 

[BestWestern]

Oh dear, we seem to have descended to enhanced pedantry level again, always a dissapointment. At no point did I, or anyone else so far as I had noticed, suggest that those travelling with Advance tickets are somehow less worthy travellers than those who pay for a full fare ticket. There is certainly elitism on my part, and I struggle to see how or why anybody might interpret travelling on a standard fare ticket to be in any way 'Elite'. My apologies to those who seem to feel they are being 'got at'; you are not.

My point is that if a person is sold something - whatever it may be - at a highly discounted rate, it would not generally be expected that those who are buying the same product, service or whatever at the full price should end up in a less favourable position. On a busy train, a seating reservation is quite possibly the most valuable additional product/service that a passenger can have. The current logic that those people who have paid the least are the only ones to be guarunteed a seating reservation, by default, is simply illogical. There is a requirement that those who have these tickets are restricted to a specific train, but there is no reason why a sepcific seat should be offered, when it is frequently to the detriment of others who have paid far, far more for their journey on that same train. I don't see any reason whatsoever why that should be a contemptuous view quite honestly, but of course we are each entitled to our own opinion!

As for the argument that anybody can/should reserve, be careful with that one. A service I often work will frequently have two out of an expected three coaches reserved pretty much solidly during the summer period. The train will very often be full and standing to within an inch of it's life. That is a lot of people not travelling on cheap tickets, who have to stand for a potentially three hour journey, with precious few seats available to anybody not on an Advance tickets. It gets far worse if the train arrives with only two coaches, not an uncommon occurence. Those people standing, having paid full fare, have every right to be royally hacked off with the situation.

 

[chris89]

Am sorry for lashing out. But believe you can see where i might be coming from, as you most likely come across it everyday.

Most the problems that do happen i believe are on XC and VT (Voyager) Services which only really allow 1 coach to be unreserved at the best of times, I agree something will have to be fixxed about it, but not by punishing advance ticket holders who booked way in advance (i try to and never get the tickets)

Lots of services i go on, am lucky to be on at the first or second stop, but some get extremely busy after Crewe, and a lot of seats are filled by bags etc. God knows what it will be like next year though.

Chris

 

[Greenback]

Some facts!

Season tickets are heavily discounted, in return for you committing your money in advance to the TOC.

Advance tickets are heavily discounted in return for you committing your money to the TOC in advance, and to one train at one time, with no refunds.

Off peak returns may be cheaper than two Advance singles.

Those with more flexible tickets can chosoe to board a very busy service or wait for another one. Choosing the very busy service may not mean they have to stand for the whole journey, seats may well become available at the next station.

If there is a problem with overbooked trains then it is a problem with the fares system, not the reservation system. I haven't seen any proposals for a reservation system that would be an improvement on what we have now!