Seat Reservations & Empty Seats

[westv]

If that's a real issue (and I don't know whether it is or not) there's always the option of charging a small fee for them. However, there's still no point in giving reservations to people who don't need them.

Didn't NXEC try charging for reservations? Don't think it lasted long. As regards people not needing them, surely the majority won't know they are not needed until the day of travel.

 

[yorksrob]

As regards people not needing them, surely the majority won't know they are not needed until the day of travel.

If they've felt the need to ask for a reservation in the first place, I'm sure that would be the case. However, if they don't bother to ask for one, we can pretty much assume that they don't need one.

 

[themeone]

I've never really understood the need for reservations at all - they just seem to cause problems.

My view is probably coloured by growing up south of London where reservations were almost unknown, and I suppose I've never quite got over the shock of not being able to sit anywhere I want on other trains.

To me, if the train's not busy then the reservation was pointless, and if it is busy you usually find someone else sitting in your reserved seat, who will often react aggressively or rudely when asked to move, or claim someone else was sitting in their reserved seat hence why they're sitting in yours. The whole thing is ridiculous.

I don't even buy the view that it's nice to have a reservation for longer journeys (in terms of time on the train), as plenty of services south of London take a long time and seem to manage fine without reservations.

 

[Hadders]

I've never really understood the need for reservations at all - they just seem to cause problems.

My view is probably coloured by growing up south of London where reservations were almost unknown, and I suppose I've never quite got over the shock of not being able to sit anywhere I want on other trains.

To me, if the train's not busy then the reservation was pointless, and if it is busy you usually find someone else sitting in your reserved seat, who will often react aggressively or rudely when asked to move, or claim someone else was sitting in their reserved seat hence why they're sitting in yours. The whole thing is ridiculous.

I don't even buy the view that it's nice to have a reservation for longer journeys (in terms of time on the train), as plenty of services south of London take a long time and seem to manage fine without reservations.

A service taking a long time on a south London commuter train is a bit different to, say, travelling from Kings Cross to Edinburgh or Inverness. I wouldn't really want to do that journey without a seat reservation.

 

[yorksrob]

I've never really understood the need for reservations at all - they just seem to cause problems.

My view is probably coloured by growing up south of London where reservations were almost unknown, and I suppose I've never quite got over the shock of not being able to sit anywhere I want on other trains.

Yes, I suspect that my view has been affected by this as well.
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A service taking a long time on a south London commuter train is a bit different to, say, travelling from Kings Cross to Edinburgh or Inverness. I wouldn't really want to do that journey without a seat reservation.

I have to say though, that as a reasonably frequent InterCity traveller, even on a relatively busy train, reservations can be a pain if you feel duty bound to sit there, particularly if it's an unsuitable seat next to a pillar or in the aisle.

 

[DaleCooper]

Is it possible that they were from the previous journey and hadn't been removed?

Also I was wondering why someone would ask this question then fly off the handle when they didn't get the answer they wanted. Perhaps it's part of some conspiracy.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Even if they're not, why exacerbate the problem by giving reservations to people who neither want, nor need one ?

Given that AP ticket holders must travel on their booked train, I'd say they are more in need of a reservation than the holder of a walk-up ticket.

Unless the AP ticket holder fancies standing up for their journey, they will want a guaranteed seat on that train. Their allocated seat may not be their preferred choice, and on an empty train they may move, but they have a guaranteed seat. On busy trains they might not want to sit by a pillar, but I bet they'd rather sit next to a pillar than stand in the vestibule for three hours.
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I've never really understood the need for reservations at all - they just seem to cause problems.

If you are able bodied and able to fight your way on to a train first, you won't see the need for reservations.

Try travelling with a young child or a grandparent, or someone with mobility issues, and you'll soon see why reservations are a good idea.

The Euston Stampede should be enough to convince you reservations are a good thing.

 

[CC 72100]

I often travel London to Bristol on an advance purchase ticket and don't think I have ever sat in my reserved seat! I view the reservation as useful to have on the off-chance the train is busy, and if I know it will be quiet (say, the 1500 ex PAD) will often catch a different train to the one my reservation is on. My bugbear are those who get on a quiet train and insist on taking up their reserved seat, even if it means disrupting a passenger already sitting there/near...:roll:

I hope that if you're using an advance ticket that regardless of where you are sitting that you're using the train you booked on!

As for the last point, people using their reservation and not sitting elsewhere to add to the confusion, how outrageous of them :roll:

 

[themeone]

A service taking a long time on a south London commuter train is a bit different to, say, travelling from Kings Cross to Edinburgh or Inverness. I wouldn't really want to do that journey without a seat reservation.

I'm talking more about the longer distance trains south of London such as Victoria to the Kent coast, or Waterloo / Victoria to places like Fareham. All these journeys take around 2 hours or so, the same as Euston to Manchester, yet reservations are not thought to be necessary and, as far as I've ever noticed, people manage fine without them.

 

[yorksrob]

Given that AP ticket holders must travel on their booked train, I'd say they are more in need of a reservation than the holder of a walk-up ticket.

Unless the AP ticket holder fancies standing up for their journey, they will want a guaranteed seat on that train. Their allocated seat may not be their preferred choice, and on an empty train they may move, but they have a guaranteed seat. On busy trains they might not want to sit by a pillar, but I bet they'd rather sit next to a pillar than stand in the vestibule for three hours.

Then let them ask for one. Simple.

I wouldn't mind betting that there are more people who would rather sit where they want, but feel they have to sit in their reserved seat, than those who would deliberately not ask for a reservation and feel aggrieved when they can't find a seat on a busy train.

SW Trains manages with non-reservation AP tickets, so there's no reason why it shouldn't be an optional extra elswhere.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I wouldn't mind betting that there are more people who would rather sit where they want, but feel they have to sit in their reserved seat, than those who would deliberately not ask for a reservation and feel aggrieved when they can't find a seat on a busy train.

As with counted places, I bet there will be plenty of people who try and claim they do have a reservation and get aggrieved when they can't find a seat.

I have seen Northern and London Midland guards get flack with counted place reservations on their longer-distance routes.

 

[yorksrob]

As with counted places, I bet there will be plenty of people who try and claim they do have a reservation and get aggrieved when they can't find a seat.

I have seen Northern and London Midland guards get flack with counted place reservations on their longer-distance routes.

In that case, they can ask for one. I'm not saying there shouldn't be seat reservations for AP, just that they shouldn't get one automatically.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given that AP ticket holders must travel on their booked train, I'd say they are more in need of a reservation than the holder of a walk-up ticket.

Unless the AP ticket holder fancies standing up for their journey, they will want a guaranteed seat on that train. Their allocated seat may not be their preferred choice, and on an empty train they may move, but they have a guaranteed seat. On busy trains they might not want to sit by a pillar, but I bet they'd rather sit next to a pillar than stand in the vestibule for three hours.
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If you are able bodied and able to fight your way on to a train first, you won't see the need for reservations.

Try travelling with a young child or a grandparent, or someone with mobility issues, and you'll soon see why reservations are a good idea.

The Euston Stampede should be enough to convince you reservations are a good thing.

While I know there are many negatives, the Euston stampede is the biggest argument for compulsory reservations I have seen.
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Though calling platforms earlier would also reduce it.

 

[sheff1]

My bugbear are those who get on a quiet train and insist on taking up their reserved seat, even if it means disrupting a passenger already sitting there/near...:roll:

If the train is that quiet why is the other passenger sitting where they are likely to be disrupted in the first place?

If I have reserved a specific seat on one of the TOC sites which allow that, then I will have done it for a reason and would have no qualms about moving someone who was blocking my access to it.

I don't even buy the view that it's nice to have a reservation for longer journeys (in terms of time on the train), as plenty of services south of London take a long time and seem to manage fine without reservations.

A train from London to the South Coast wll tend to have 8 or 12 coaches with a service frequency of every 30 mins or even 15. From Sheffield to Bristol most trains will have 4 or 5 coaches and the service is hourly. The hourly trains from Sheffield to Norwich always have only 2 coaches.

 

[Hadders]

I'm talking more about the longer distance trains south of London such as Victoria to the Kent coast, or Waterloo / Victoria to places like Fareham. All these journeys take around 2 hours or so, the same as Euston to Manchester, yet reservations are not thought to be necessary and, as far as I've ever noticed, people manage fine without them.

There's a key difference you've overlooked. Take London to Manchester, the train generally gets busier as it goes towards Manchester (more get on than get off at Milton Keynes, Stoke On Trent, Crewe, Stockport etc.) With services from London to the South Coast the opposite is generally true with the train emptying as it gets nearer to its destination. Seats will therefore become available on services to the South Coast meaning that it's unlikely that passengers will have to stand for the whole journey.

 

[34D]

In that case, they can ask for one. I'm not saying there shouldn't be seat reservations for AP, just that they shouldn't get one automatically.

I'd like to build on Rob's excellent idea: counted place for all uber cheap advance tickets, and two coaches specifically reserved for those with anytime/super off peak flexible tickets. Counted place people can only take a seat if the guard certain that flexible people don't need (so after Dunbar, on London to edinburgh}

 

[yorksrob]

I'd like to build on Rob's excellent idea: counted place for all uber cheap advance tickets, and two coaches specifically reserved for those with anytime/super off peak flexible tickets. Counted place people can only take a seat if the guard certain that flexible people don't need (so after Dunbar, on London to edinburgh}

Sounds rather time consuming and difficult to administer. Far easier to just let them book a reservation if they want one as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd like to build on Rob's excellent idea: counted place for all uber cheap advance tickets, and two coaches specifically reserved for those with anytime/super off peak flexible tickets. Counted place people can only take a seat if the guard certain that flexible people don't need (so after Dunbar, on London to edinburgh}

If you're going to do that kind of allocation thing, I'd just go for stopping marking reservations and having one or two completely unreserved coaches. If you didn't have to mark reservations you could have them available from TVMs etc right up to departure and even after it if delayed.

 

[Flamingo]

I've just seen this thread. A very large number of ticket holders sit in other than their reserved seat even if on their reserved train for a variety of reasons, usually connected with not wanting to sit beside somebody else, or to sit at a table, or sit forward / back facing, or keep an eye on the luggage rack....

(A significant number travel on other than their reserved train, but that's for another thread...)

On peak-time trains in and out of London, you also get the bulk reservations by Season Ticket holders who have decided to travel on a different train (or not travel at all that day).

As a rough estimate, I will pull out between 25-30% of all reservation labels as "No shows".

 

[transmanche]

As a rough estimate, I will pull out between 25-30% of all reservation labels as "No shows".

Obviously, you're just part of the 'conspiracy'...

 

[Mojo]

Once you're a few minutes past the station the reservations are for and the passenger hasn't turned up, there's nothing to stop you sitting in that seat without a reservation - and so no advantage to anyone marking it as reserved if it isn't.

Unfortunately Great Western don't seem to have a sensible policy on seat reservations. A few years ago I boarded a very busy HST at Newton Abbot that was heading to London. There were no unreserved seats that were not occupied in the area I was sat in, but there were a number of seats with reservation labels for stations the train had already served but which were unoccupied. At Castle Cary, someone got on the train, and demanded I vacate the seat because they had reserved it. The reservation was from Newquay, the origin of the service almost 4 Hours earlier. The Train Manager was contacted and said that I was required to give up the seat, even though the customer had made a reservation and didn't even board the train until a number of stops later. Customer relations backed up the Train Manager.

 

[Flamingo]

Unfortunately Great Western don't seem to have a sensible policy on seat reservations. A few years ago I boarded a very busy HST at Newton Abbot that was heading to London. There were no unreserved seats that were not occupied in the area I was sat in, but there were a number of seats with reservation labels for stations the train had already served but which were unoccupied. At Castle Cary, someone got on the train, and demanded I vacate the seat because they had reserved it. The reservation was from Newquay, the origin of the service almost 4 Hours earlier. The Train Manager was contacted and said that I was required to give up the seat, even though the customer had made a reservation and didn't even board the train until a number of stops later. Customer relations backed up the Train Manager.

Under similar circumstances I have found the person who demanded their seat later an alternative seat in Std Class. When they refused that, and told me to "Do your damn job", I gave the person who was in the seat a complimentary First Class upgrade...

 

[island]

Yes, I suspect that my view has been affected by this as well.
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I have to say though, that as a reasonably frequent InterCity traveller, even on a relatively busy train, reservations can be a pain if you feel duty bound to sit there, particularly if it's an unsuitable seat next to a pillar or in the aisle.

It's not just duty, it's required by the T&Cs of advance tickets that you sit in the assigned seat.

In that case, they can ask for one. I'm not saying there shouldn't be seat reservations for AP, just that they shouldn't get one automatically.

That's the thing. They can't on LM and Northern even if they want to. ATW is a bit different in that reservations are not issued as a matter of course but can be had if needed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not just duty, it's required by the T&Cs of advance tickets that you sit in the assigned seat.

ISTR it was GNER that demanded that went in, and it is now effectively unenforced other than by individual staff on the busiest trains.
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Under similar circumstances I have found the person who demanded their seat later an alternative seat in Std Class. When they refused that, and told me to "Do your damn job", I gave the person who was in the seat a complimentary First Class upgrade...

I like it

DB's policy is that you have to claim it on departure from the origin on the reservation, and they disappear off the displays on that basis (or the guard removes them). If you want to save it, you're expected to put a piece of clothing on it or similar.

 

[fandroid]

I've just seen this thread. A very large number of ticket holders sit in other than their reserved seat even if on their reserved train for a variety of reasons, usually connected with not wanting to sit beside somebody else, or to sit at a table, or sit forward / back facing, or keep an eye on the luggage rack....

(A significant number travel on other than their reserved train, but that's for another thread...)

On peak-time trains in and out of London, you also get the bulk reservations by Season Ticket holders who have decided to travel on a different train (or not travel at all that day).

As a rough estimate, I will pull out between 25-30% of all reservation labels as "No shows".

I am very pleased to see a professional confirming my own estimate (as a regular long distance passenger) of the percentage of "no shows". It occurs on all long distance TOCs. The only one I never use is London-Norwich, but I suspect that it is about the same there too. All the comments in favour of just parking themselves wherever they like, and ignoring their own reservation, are being fairly contemptuous of those who don't travel regularly, and just want a seat. Some passengers get quite anxious about a sea of reservations on empty seats and it puts them off train travel. The argument about Manchester trains filling up as they go north ignores the fact that people will get off on route, and standees already there will get first go at the vacant seats. In the last five years of train travel I have never had to stand on a long distance train, despite almost never having a reservation. I have camped in empty reserved seats, but that's another story.

 

[DeeGee]

DB's policy is that you have to claim it on departure from the origin on the reservation, and they disappear off the displays on that basis (or the guard removes them). If you want to save it, you're expected to put a piece of clothing on it or similar.

A towel, perhaps?

I'm here all week!

 

[anme]

I'd like to build on Rob's excellent idea: counted place for all uber cheap advance tickets, and two coaches specifically reserved for those with anytime/super off peak flexible tickets. Counted place people can only take a seat if the guard certain that flexible people don't need (so after Dunbar, on London to edinburgh}

The practicalities might need some work, but I am generally in favour of an approach like this. We should make sure those people paying very high prices get priority for seats, ahead of those on cheap tickets. Let's not go down the budget airline route of penalising the most profitable customers!

 

[yorksrob]

The practicalities might need some work, but I am generally in favour of an approach like this. We should make sure those people paying very high prices get priority for seats, ahead of those on cheap tickets. Let's not go down the budget airline route of penalising the most profitable customers!

True, but high paying customers already have the ability to reserve a seat if they so wish. If they can't do this in advance, why should someone who may or may not turn up on a particular train get priority over someone who has to be there.

Also, not all advances are dirt cheap. That argument might be justified for someone paying ten pounds to get from London to Leeds, but is less so if they're paying forty quid for an advance.

 

[Flamingo]

A towel, perhaps?

I'm here all week!

Thanks for the warning

 

[snail]

If the train is that quiet why is the other passenger sitting where they are likely to be disrupted in the first place?

If I have reserved a specific seat on one of the TOC sites which allow that, then I will have done it for a reason and would have no qualms about moving someone who was blocking my access to it.

I had just that experience today on a TPE train to Manchester. It was fairly empty when I got on (unusual but it is a summer Friday) but always fills up en route. The person in 'my' seat looked well settled, with their coat on the adjacent seat and suitcase in front of it. They seemed surprised when I pointed to the reservation coupon. But with a blocked seat and luggage to move as well I just had to do it.