Seat for under 5

[ASharpe]

Going on LNER next month I want to get a table for 4 but only pay for 3 of us as the youngest is 3.

If i book at a station will they give me a full table with seat reservation for the 3 year old?

Also borderline in we just use the adult disabled railcard or buy a new F&F but wont use it again for 6 months.

 

[NCT]

How many tickets will you be buying? I doubt they'd issue a number of seat reservations greater than the number of tickets you hold.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To have a seat for a child under 5 a child ticket must be purchased. They are free as a "babe in arms" though a spare seat can be taken if nobody else needs it.

It seems per the below this is no longer true - however a reservation should technically not be issued. However if you get one...

 

[Kite159]

If you book a table with 3 tickets, you could go onto the LNER website and reserve the 4th seat for the under 5.

Although probably not within the spirit of the rules, but considering other people do it (and then lie if someone asks if the vacant seat has someone sitting there).

 

[Tetchytyke]

If you go on to the LNER website you can reserve a seat without having to hold a ticket. You shouldn't do this, obviously, as children under 5 are only entitled to take a seat if nobody else needs it.

 

[The exile]

If you go on to the LNER website you can reserve a seat without having to hold a ticket. You shouldn't do this, obviously, as children under 5 are only entitled to take a seat if nobody else needs it.

Shouldn’t that be “children under 5 travelling free”….?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Shouldn’t that be “children under 5 travelling free”….?

Correct, yes. An under 5 for whom a child ticket has been purchased has the same rights to a seat (edit: and reservation) as an over 5. If they're travelling free and the train is full, if one is travelling free their seat should be given up.

 

[AlterEgo]

Nobody is making a three year old stand or be carried in someone's arms, or charge them up, just reserve the seat.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nobody is making a three year old stand or be carried in someone's arms, or charge them up, just reserve the seat.

The idea is that they are free in return for being a lap child if the train gets busy. If you're not happy with that, pay for a seat. The seat should be given up without needing to be asked when the last otherwise spare seat is taken, same as if you had your bag on it - in neither case has it been paid for.

Them's the rules. Same as flying.

Using the LNER reservation tool to make that seat less likely to be reserved by someone else is a bit de minimis, but insisting on keeping the seat such that a paying passenger has to stand is wrong.

This was out of date information, so please disregard - thanks!

 

[AlterEgo]

Please provide a citation in the NRCoT that a child travelling as per the rules, without a ticket, cannot have a seat reservation and is not entitled to sit down.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Please provide a citation in the NRCoT that a child travelling as per the rules, without a ticket, cannot have a seat reservation and is not entitled to sit down.

3.2:

National Rail Conditions of Travel - Part C: Planning Your Journey and Buying Your Ticket | National Rail

The gateway to Britain's National Rail network. A portal into UK rail travel including train company information and promotions; train times; fares enquiries; ticket purchase and train running information

www.nationalrail.co.uk

3.2 Some types of Ticket (for instance “advance” Tickets) require you to make a reservation when buying your Ticket. For other Tickets you can request a reservation either when buying a Ticket, or before the departure of your train on presentation of a valid Ticket, at most staffed stations. You are allowed a maximum of one seat reservation per person for each train that forms part of your journey.

It is not possible to present a valid Ticket for someone who does not hold one, so a reservation should not be issued for them. That LNER's website has a poor way of verifying that that actually just verifies that you entered a number that isn't 0 (and that GWR's site doesn't verify at all) doesn't change that. Once it's technically possible to do so I'm sure they will, it just isn't with CCST.

It looks to me like the stipulation regarding not occupying a seat if required for a fare paying passenger may have been removed as I'm struggling to find it. It certainly used to be there. Does anyone know when it was taken out, perhaps when the NRCoC became the NRCoT? Or am I missing it?

This being the case the original poster needn't worry about a "dodgy" reservation as it would appear there can be no penalty for it. And with LNER having a high proportion of reserved travel I bet there's worse misuse of this system, e.g. people 'blocking" the other 4 seats at a table in an attempt to keep it for themselves.

 

[jfollows]

Although it is stated as fact at https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/on-the-train/train-travel-with-children/

Children under 5​

Children under 5 years of age travel for free on most journeys but check with your train company to make sure. Please note, children under 5 who are travelling without a ticket may only occupy a seat that is not required by a fare-paying passenger. To have a reserved seat for a child under 5 you will need to purchase a child rate ticket. These come with seat reservations (if available), and there is also a 50% discount on most tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although it is stated as fact at https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/on-the-train/train-travel-with-children/

Thanks. This would seem to confirm that it probably *was* in the NRCoT and I'm not going mad! I wonder when it was taken out?

 

[AlterEgo]

It looks to me like the stipulation regarding not occupying a seat if required for a fare paying passenger may have been removed as I'm struggling to find it. It certainly used to be there. Does anyone know when it was taken out, perhaps when the NRCoC became the NRCoT? Or am I missing it?

A long time ago! It used to be the case, but for many years now it has not been. It was deliberately removed in 2016, I think. Children under 5 can sit down without penalty. As the NRCoT state:

You are allowed a maximum of one seat reservation per person for each train that forms part of your journey.

This includes anyone travelling legitmately for free as explicitly authorised by the NRCoT, which acts as their Ticket. It is a "record which entitles a passenger to make a journey on the National Rail Network".

 

[jfollows]

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage, which were replaced by the National Rail Conditions of Travel in 2016 do indeed state in June 2006 and in May 2012:

5.Children

Up to two children under five years of age may accompany each fare-paying passenger free of charge. However, children under five years of age who are travelling free may only occupy a seat which is not required by a fare-paying passenger.

The full documents can be found by searching the Internet for the earlier name of the publication.

Although the document I linked to wouldn't be treated as authoritative, it's a shame that ten years after the change an "official" part of the National Rail web site still has incorrect information. It won't be the only error!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is a "record which entitles a passenger to make a journey on the National Rail Network".

We'll have to disagree with that as there is no actual record anywhere. In practice however there's nothing stopping someone making a reservation on the LNER site with a made up ticket number. However I suspect the chance of getting one at a station would not be 100%.

Really the NRCoT should be clear on this and state either that anyone travelling for free with approval to do so is entitled to one or they are not.