Season tickets with SWT

[SolaTom]

I reverese commute from Camberwell to New Malden....
So I had a 12 month season ticket which I bought at VXH to zones 2 - 4, which had printed on it:
London Terminals & zones 2-4
It worked in the barriers at VXH and at WAT, as well as in zones 2 - 4.
When I went to renew it, they gave me a new ticket with Vauxhall written on the ticket.
I complained that it wasn't the same as the old one.
They said that the old one shouldn't have worked at Waterloo.
I told them it did (and that several guards had let me through the barriers on inspection as I often have a bike)
They refused to give me a like-for-like replacement ticket, and quoted me £600 extra to get a new ticket that goes (according to them) London Terminals and zones 1 - 4.
How do I get my original ticket back?!?!
I'ts convenient, I only go to WAT once a week tops for going out after work, and queueing up to buy a VXH - WAT extension is a hassle (because you can't get them from the machine at New Malden, naturally). And it costs a complete fortune, for a four minute journey where you're mostly stuck waiting for a platform.
So, frankly, for the risk of once a week getting caught between VXH and WAT (£20) or paying an extra £600, errr, SWT have just got themselves another fare evader. I'd have to be caught more than 30 times a year for it not to be economical, and let's face it, at peak times slipping through the barriers behind someone is a piece of cake!

Any comments, or tricks I can use to force them to re-issue the old ticket??

It seems to me like the price of my ticket has just increased by about 40% - what a scam!

Thanks
Tom

 

[Mushtimushta]

@SolaTom,
It sounds like your original ticket was issued incorrectly, I'm afraid. As you know, a Zones 2-4 Travelcard is not valid for travel to/from Waterloo, which is in Zone 1.
If you only make the occasional journey to Waterloo, I'd suggest that you use PAYG for these journeys, rather that buting either a London Terminals - New Malden rail-only season or a Zones 1-4 Travelcard.

 

[transportphoto]

I don't know if this is the same principal but this is an example I have just thought about:

London Terminals to Z2-4 would permit a rail journey (from a London Terminal) to Zone 2-4 however this would not permit tube, dlr etc... within zone 1.

I dont know if this ticket exists or even if it did exist, have you a scan of the old ticket we can look at please if not then the details which were printed on the ticket?

 

[wibble]

London Terminals to Z2-4 would permit a rail journey (from a London Terminal) to Zone 2-4 however this would not permit tube, dlr etc... within zone 1.

Not possible - with Travelcards you must pay for each zone you pass through and would need a London Terminals - Zones 1-4 to use Waterloo.

Both Vauxhall and Waterloo are classed as London Terminals. As mushtimusta said, your ticket's been incorrectly issued. If your tickets have let you though the gates at Waterloo, it's an SWT error that's worked in your favour.

 

[bb21]

If you don't want to pay extra to get to Waterloo, you can always detrain at Vauxhall and get the 77 bus to go to Waterloo. It'll take a bit longer but at least it's free.

 

[SolaTom]

Hello again,

@transportphoto:
here's a scan of the two tickets.

@everyone else
I'd naively assumed that (not being a rail expert) that the ticket I was sold in 2009 which said London Terminals to Zones 2-4 worked in every terminal (indeed I now recall that it worked at Kings Cross and Liverpool street)

I have to say that it's not obvious to me why it wouldn't work between a London terminal and a station in zones 2-4. Just like a ticket from London to Winchester works at all imtermediate stations without having them explicitly named on the ticket.

I'm afraid to say that this looks like another case of penny pinching from a subsidised, profitable business - but then I am no expert - just p!ssed off I had to ride and extra 10 mins in the rain this morning because I couldn't join the train at Waterloo (i was coming from brick lane for a change).

Here's the ticket scans.

THanks for your help and input.

Tom

 

[Greenback]

It shouldn't work in all London Terminals. It's a confusing concept, but many routes into and out of London are valid from more than one London station.

I am not an expert in London tickets by any means, but it does look like you were issued with the wrong ticket in 2009. Far from being a deliberate down grading of your season due to penny pinching, you;ve actually had a lot more use out of your old season than you should have. The ticket you have just been given is the one you should have received last year.

Someone with more knowledge can tell you if there is a cheaper season between Camberwell and New Malden, but you apepar to have the correct ticket if you asked for a Vauxhall to Zone 4.

 

[wintonian]

The ticket issued in 2009 says "London Terminals & London Zones 2-4"

I and any logical thinking person (I would have thought) would assume that this is valid to both London terminals and station in zones 2-4, whereas the new one is clearly only valid to stations in zones 2-4 and not London terminals.

 

[wibble]

I'm afraid to say that this looks like another case of penny pinching from a subsidised, profitable business - but then I am no expert - just p!ssed off I had to ride and extra 10 mins in the rain this morning because I couldn't join the train at Waterloo (i was coming from brick lane for a change).

A London Terminals - Zones 2-4 is NOT valid at Waterloo and never has been.

As Vauxhall is a London Terminal, it is valid to/from Vauxhall but NOT any station in Zone 1.

 

[Greenback]

A London Terminals - Zones 2-4 is NOT valid at Waterloo and never has been.

As Vauxhall is a London Terminal, it is valid to/from Vauxhall but NOT any station in Zone 1.

If that is correct then how are passengers and staff supposed to know that in this case it's only valid from vauxhall, but other tickets saying London terminals are valid from Waterloo?

It's not as if the concept of London Terminals is straightdorward in the first place, without adding this sort of thing!

 

[Stigy]

A London Terminals - Zones 2-4 is NOT valid at Waterloo and never has been.

As Vauxhall is a London Terminal, it is valid to/from Vauxhall but NOT any station in Zone 1.

But Waterloo is a London Terminal, is it not? The ticket satating that it works from London Terminals, suggests just that.

 

[SolaTom]

But Waterloo is a London Terminal, is it not? The ticket satating that it works from London Terminals, suggests just that.

And I think that is exactly my point! If the system let my previous ticket be issued, why can't it be re-issued? And anyway, it worked at the barriers so it must have been valid!

 

[Greenback]

Because it was issued in error, and should have cost you £600 more?

 

[wibble]

And I think that is exactly my point! If the system let my previous ticket be issued, why can't it be re-issued? And anyway, it worked at the barriers so it must have been valid!

As I've already said, the original ticket was incorrectly issued in your favour and now you're upset that you can't have the same ticket again.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But Waterloo is a London Terminal, is it not? The ticket satating that it works from London Terminals, suggests just that.

As is Vauxhall - but with Travelcards you have to pay for each Zone you have to use. Waterloo is in Zone 1 and a Zones 2-4 season ticket is not valid for travel into Waterloo or any station Zone 1.

 

[clagmonster]

Vauxhall is a member of the London Terminals group of stations. Therefore, a ticket with an origin of Vauxhall can be issued with an origin of London Terminals instead with no change, either positive or negative, in validity. This does not mean that it is valid at all stations in the London Terminals group, in this case it is only valid at London Terminals within zones 2-4, of which I think Vauxhall is the only one. I believe this ticket was technically issued correctly and was not valid at Waterloo. Similarly, a Finsbury Park-London Terminals ticket would clearly only be valid at Old Street, Moorgate and Kings Cross, not at the likes of Waterloo and Vauxhall.

However, it seems that SWT have decided to clarify the wording on the tickets issued at Vauxhall, such as this. This avoids confusion, which I suspect was rife as the validity of the ticket was counter intuitive.

If you wish to travel into Waterloo, you can either travel by bus, which is valid with your ticket, or by a ticket from Boundary zone 2 to Waterloo. You will be able to get you Gold Card discount on this, you should by it from the booking office at New Malden. They can be issued in advance if this is more convenient, although they are effectively non-refundable. If the booking office at New Malden is closed, you can buy on the train, or if thereis no commercial guard or TTI from the barrier at Waterloo.

 

[Daniel]

Any comments, or tricks I can use to force them to re-issue the old ticket??

...no.

I only go to WAT once a week tops for going out after work, and queueing up to buy a VXH - WAT extension is a hassle (because you can't get them from the machine at New Malden, naturally). And it costs a complete fortune,

Bus 77 from stop J at Vauxhall Station, towards Waterloo Station.



There, saved you

paying an extra £600

You're welcome.

 

[MikeWh]

An alternative to the bus or buying a boundary zone 2 to waterloo ticket from New Malden would be to get an Oystercard and have the gold card discount registered on it. Then get off your train at Vauxhall and use your season to exit the barrier. Immediately re-enter using your Oystercard. There are so many trains between Vauxhall and Waterloo that you shouldn't have to wait more than 5 minutes for the next one. As long as you aren't trying to enter between 4pm and 7pm the railcard discounted single fare is £1. On the way back try to get a train before a New Malden one to give you time to repeat the process.

In the future you should consider getting the season ticket loaded onto the Oyster. That way you wouldn't need to hop on and off at Vauxhall. You would need a dreaded OEP on the way to Waterloo but on the way home you just touch in at Waterloo and out at New Malden. Simples!

 

[Greenback]

Vauxhall is a member of the London Terminals group of stations. Therefore, a ticket with an origin of Vauxhall can be issued with an origin of London Terminals instead with no change, either positive or negative, in validity. This does not mean that it is valid at all stations in the London Terminals group, in this case it is only valid at London Terminals within zones 2-4, of which I think Vauxhall is the only one. I believe this ticket was technically issued correctly and was not valid at Waterloo. Similarly, a Finsbury Park-London Terminals ticket would clearly only be valid at Old Street, Moorgate and Kings Cross, not at the likes of Waterloo and Vauxhall.

However, it seems that SWT have decided to clarify the wording on the tickets issued at Vauxhall, such as this. This avoids confusion, which I suspect was rife as the validity of the ticket was counter intuitive.

Thanks for that very clear explanation clagmonster! I am pleased that the origin station ha sbeen changed, I suspect you are right and there must have been a lot of confusion! The ticke tis much clearer now.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Vauxhall is a member of the London Terminals group of stations. Therefore, a ticket with an origin of Vauxhall can be issued with an origin of London Terminals instead with no change, either positive or negative, in validity. This does not mean that it is valid at all stations in the London Terminals group, in this case it is only valid at London Terminals within zones 2-4, of which I think Vauxhall is the only one. I believe this ticket was technically issued correctly and was not valid at Waterloo. Similarly, a Finsbury Park-London Terminals ticket would clearly only be valid at Old Street, Moorgate and Kings Cross, not at the likes of Waterloo and Vauxhall.

However, it seems that SWT have decided to clarify the wording on the tickets issued at Vauxhall, such as this. This avoids confusion, which I suspect was rife as the validity of the ticket was counter intuitive.

If you wish to travel into Waterloo, you can either travel by bus, which is valid with your ticket, or by a ticket from Boundary zone 2 to Waterloo. You will be able to get you Gold Card discount on this, you should by it from the booking office at New Malden. They can be issued in advance if this is more convenient, although they are effectively non-refundable. If the booking office at New Malden is closed, you can buy on the train, or if thereis no commercial guard or TTI from the barrier at Waterloo.

Well summarised, if I may say so.

My initial thought was that this is just one of those situations where exceptions apply. The complication is that Vauxhall is a London Terminals member, which is actually a convenient addition to the list, but also happens to be in Zone 2. So Vauxhall ends up being the *only* London Terminal last year's ticket can be used at. The fact that there is another London Terminal a couple of minutes away by frequent direct train is irrelevant - as pointed out already.

The error or oversight last time was failing to be careful about when a London terminal should use its own name, rather than the group name. It's obvious that a single from Vauxhall to Waterloo will say just that, not London Terminals to London Terminals. The same clarity between different London Terminals was needed here, but was not previously provided.

In fact, the origin station is actually irrelevant for a within-zones travelcard; it doesn't matter whether it says Vauxhall or London Terminals. Perhaps the biggest shortcoming is that the ticket has *any* specific station name on it.