Season ticket - travelling further

[nibbles]

Hi

I am new to this forum & I've searched to find answers to my question but can't find any so here goes ...

I have a season ticket EUS - WML which I travel on about 3/4 days week. Occasionally I need to travel to Wigan for client meetings and I typically jump on the train which is 5 mins before and then pay the excess fare (about £14) on board when my ticket is checked.

I have to say that my ticket is checked (I'm in first class) every single time I travel from EUS so this is not an attempt to avoid the fare (although several times the inspector lets me off the excess - as I think they can't be bothered to make me pay!). But I do explain the situation and offer to pay.

The other day I was running really late getting to Euston and had to run like anything to make the train to Wigan. I made it about 3 mins before the train was due to leave and duly showed my season ticket to the staff at the barrier. For the first time ever they asked me where I was travelling to - I said Wigan and that I would pay the excess on the train. They refused to let me through - I was rather out of breath and quite upset as I had an important meeting but they wouldn't budge. I said I there were always checks on the train in 1st class and I'd never had a problem before - but nothing doing. There wasn't time for me to purchase the £14 excess at the barrier so I missed my train.

So my question is - can they prevent you from boarding the train? I have been told since that I could have just run for the train and ignored them but I have no idea if that's true. I was fully intending to pay the excess (and have done in the past) and as I said there's a 100% track record of tickets being checked on the morning services from Euston so it's a a reasonable assumption I can pay on the train. Or do I need to in future buy a ticket for the extra - the problem is that I rarely have time to go to the ticket office to buy tickets as my mornings are tightly timed as it is.

Any advice welcome. Thanks!

 

[wibble]

Which train did you try to board at Euston to Wigan?

 

[First class]

Technically if you have a ticket valid A-B and you tell them you're travelling to C then you're likely to be refused access to a train.

Also, you shouldn't be getting the excess on the train, as you have oppertunity to buy before you board. Therefore, (and Virgin usually do enforce this), you are only allowed to purchase SOR/SOR/FOS/FOR on board. Theoretically those RPIs at Euston have saved you a lot of money.

2. Requirement to hold a ticket
Before you travel you must have a ticket or other authority to travel which is valid for the
train(s) you intend to use and for the journey you intend to make.

If you travel in a train:
(a) without a ticket;

you will be liable to pay the full single fare or full return fare or, if appropriate, a Penalty
Fare (see Condition 4) for your journey. You will not be entitled to any discounts

If, in the RPIs opinion, you were planning on deliberately travelling further than permitted, then you can be refused access entirely and be removed (physically) by him. Now in this case, it looks at though the RPI wanted you to get your ticket before you start your journey, which is fine.

(2) Removal of persons
(i) Any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised person to be in breach of any of these Byelaws shall leave the railway immediately if asked to do so by an authorised person.
(ii) Any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised person to be in breach of any of these Byelaws and who fails to desist or leave when asked to do so by an authorised person may be removed from the railway by an authorised person using reasonable force. This right of removal is in addition to the imposition of any penalty for the breach of these Byelaws.

(5) Attempts
Any person who attempts to breach any of the Byelaws numbered 9, 10, 11, 13(1), 20(2) and 21 shall be liable to the same penalty as given above for breach of that Byelaw.

 

[yorkie]

I have to say that my ticket is checked (I'm in first class) every single time I travel from EUS so this is not an attempt to avoid the fare (although several times the inspector lets me off the excess - as I think they can't be bothered to make me pay!). But I do explain the situation and offer to pay.

This is fine. Virgin allow full fare tickets to be bought on board.

In your case the ticket is £16.80 as your season ticket is valid to (at least) Crewe, and a Crewe to Wigan FOS is £16.80.

The other day I was running really late getting to Euston and had to run like anything to make the train to Wigan. I made it about 3 mins before the train was due to leave and duly showed my season ticket to the staff at the barrier. For the first time ever they asked me where I was travelling to - I said Wigan and that I would pay the excess on the train.

Was this first call Warrington? If it stopped anywhere before Crewe, I'd have told them that station (yes I would lie to them) to be let through. I would then immediately go to the guard and say "I have just changed my mind and would like to go to Wigan, here's my season ticket as far as Crewe, will you sell me a ticket from Crewe to Wigan on board please?" to which the guard would, of course, say yes! I see nothing wrong with this whatsoever.

If the train was first call Warrington, then they aren't going to let you on as that's beyond the last point at which your ticket is valid. (although I've not checked, someone may correct me and find that there is a bizarre permitted route to Wilmslow via Warrington but I doubt it, and good luck trying it if there is )

They refused to let me through - I was rather out of breath and quite upset as I had an important meeting but they wouldn't budge. I said I there were always checks on the train in 1st class and I'd never had a problem before - but nothing doing. There wasn't time for me to purchase the £14 excess at the barrier so I missed my train.

If the train is first call Warrington then this is what I'd expect from the barrier staff.

So my question is - can they prevent you from boarding the train?

If the train was first call Warrington, yes.

If it called at anywhere before that e.g. Crewe, Nuneaton etc then I don't see how they can.

I have been told since that I could have just run for the train and ignored them but I have no idea if that's true.

If the first call was Warrington, then that is a highly risky course of action.

If it called somewhere first, then I don't think they can do anything as you'd be valid to that station. Only after that station would you be invalid, by which time the guard would have seen you and sold you a ticket.

I was fully intending to pay the excess (and have done in the past) and as I said there's a 100% track record of tickets being checked on the morning services from Euston so it's a a reasonable assumption I can pay on the train.

Yes, Virgin do allow buying on board.

Or do I need to in future buy a ticket for the extra - the problem is that I rarely have time to go to the ticket office to buy tickets as my mornings are tightly timed as it is.

Any advice welcome. Thanks!

If the train you want is first call Warrington, then unfortunately you have little choice but to either queue at the ticket office or, if they will let you, buy at the barrier (arrive earlier).

I think a campaign should be launched to force TOCs to allow the sale of tickets from anywhere to anywhere at ticket machines. It is unfair that you should have to queue whereas a non-season ticket holder buying from London does not have to queue as the machine can handle their request.

Without knowing what service you wanted it is difficult to say because I do not know if it called at any station before Warrington.

 

[MikeWh]

A quick check of NRE suggests that the OPs normal train is the 0735 to Manchester and the other train is the 0730 to Glasgow, first stop Warrington.

 

[yorkie]

Right. Well that's a bit of a problem then. While the train does not have to call at Crewe for the combination of a Season ticket + Anytime Day Single to be valid, the barrier staff can refuse admittance to the train until such a ticket is purchased. My only advice can be to arrive at the barrier earlier. I believe they will sell Anytime tickets at the barrier. Some of them may not know the rules on combining tickets so you may want to always carry the rules with you in case you encounter staff who are not acting the way they should.

 

[MikeWh]

The other option is to purchase your ticket the night before. Presumably you know that you will need to go to Wigan before you get up in the morning. You could also go online and purchase it to be picked up at the TVMs at Euston. You might need to allow two hours for the system to propagate details.

I do understand your difficulty in having extra time in the morning. It's something that I often suffer from as well.

 

[nibbles]

Hi all

Thanks for the replies. Indeed my train only stops at Warrington so my ticket is really not valid on the train (and in fact now that I think of it most of the other times I get the 0539 from Euston which does stop at Crewe so I guess then the staff figure I'll be changing there which is why they never queried it before). And partly it was my fault I was really far too late arriving - I'd have happily bought a ticket at the barrier I just didn't have time to do so!

So I guess in future I need to just ensure I have enough time to get a ticket from the machine (as yes I do know the night before so I could buy online to be honest) or to purchase at the barrier ... and set my alarm a wee bit earlier.

Thanks for all your help!

 

[muug1982]

Right. Well that's a bit of a problem then. While the train does not have to call at Crewe for the combination of a Season ticket + Anytime Day Single to be valid,

Sorry - I'm still pretty new to this, can I clarify something. As posted on another thread (http://www.railforums.org.uk/showthread.php?t=37626) I travel semi-regularly from Luton Parkway to Coleshill Parkway. I split tickets at Market Harborough, with a season ticket for the first leg, (luton - Market Hboro) and an anytime return for the second (market Hboro - Coleshill.)

Does this mean that the train I get does not need to stop at Market Harborough?

 

[yorkie]

Yes

 

[DJ737]

Surely any rail ticket should be treated as a permit to travel as long as you are heading in the right direction, if you wish to extend your journey, sort it out with the on-train staff. (ie pay the London-Wigan fare less the London Wilmslow fare)

 

[yorkie]

Surely any rail ticket should be treated as a permit to travel as long as you are heading in the right direction, if you wish to extend your journey, sort it out with the on-train staff. (ie pay the London-Wigan fare less the London Wilmslow fare)

That's fine but where there is a barrier for that specific train (admittedly this is quite a rare scenario but it does happen at Euston for several Virgin trains) and the train doesn't stop for around 200 miles, then the barrier staff are going to want to sell an excess/additional ticket for that "permit to travel". The problem is if you leave it until the last minute, there isn't time for this transaction to be completed before the train leaves.

In any case a "permit to travel" doesn't really have any meaning in this context as the term is used to describe obtaining a receipt that allows you to get on a train for which you must have a ticket before boarding (this doesn't apply to Virgin) where no facilities exist to buy the required ticket before boarding. In other words, a "permit to travel" is not required/applicable in this scenario.

Common sense says, a customer paying £thousands who just needs to pay an extra £16, should be treated as a valued customer. However these people do not see it as their job (and are probably not told it is their job) to value customers. It is their job to make sure everyone has paid to use that train. And the customer hasn't quite, as it doesn't stop within the validity of his Season. Yes, even though the guard is going to be quite capable of assisting the customer in the nearly 2 hours before the next stop, so it is an odd decision IMO to barrier that train at that time in the morning, but that's down to Virgin policy. Yes it's slightly surprising but there you go.

I'm not saying it's right or sensible, but that's the situation and I wouldn't expect anything different of them.

 

[nibbles]

In fact I have been checked every single morning train I take on Virgin to the North West (0539, 0730 and 0735) - I travel around 3 times a week so it's fairly consistently checked.
In fact yesterday morning I saw a lady in tears who was travelling to a funeral who was being stopped as she didn't have some correct ticket and the barrier staff were refusing to let her on the train.

So it's fairly standard policy to check - and as you say the barrier staff are not trying to assess customer value! They are there to check the train!

I think the Train Managers are more cognisant of "valued customers" which is why they often let me off the extra fare as they look at the £ price of the season ticket and figure it's only a few extra pounds so what is the point.

 

[clagmonster]

If the train was first call Warrington, then they aren't going to let you on as that's beyond the last point at which your ticket is valid. (although I've not checked, someone may correct me and find that there is a bizarre permitted route to Wilmslow via Warrington but I doubt it, and good luck trying it if there is )

According to the routeing guide:
Euston is a member of the London Group, Wlimslow is a member of the Wilsmlow group
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/routeing_point_identifier.pdf page 67

GM+MA is a valid routeing permission for London Group-Wilmslow group
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/permitted_route_identifier.pdf page 599

Map MA allows:
Euston-Willesden Jn-Watford Jn-Bletchley-Rugby-Nuneaton-Tamworth-Lichfield-Rugeley-Stafford-Crewe-Warrington
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/maps.pdf page 67

Map GM allows:
Warrington-Manchester-Wilmslow
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/maps.pdf page 41

Therefore, the ticket is valid via Warrington so is valid on said train. To travel through to Wigan, a Warrington-Wigan ticket should be purchased.

Yorkie, if this wasn't valid, I would agree with everythinh you have said.

 

[yorkie]

haha! Well done Clagmonster ! As I said earlier "(although I've not checked, someone may correct me and find that there is a bizarre permitted route to Wilmslow via Warrington but I doubt it, and good luck trying it if there is )"

Good luck indeed! Take a copy of the relevant maps if you want to try this!!

 

[MikeWh]

Even better news is: You now only need to pay between Warrington and Wigan which is £4 anytime single. You will also need to print off those map pages refered to by clagmonster to convince the guard that you aren't ticketless between Crewe and Warrington.