Season ticket question

[rockford]

I've had a look at the NRCoC and I can't see the answer to this question, so I'm hoping you can help.
I've got a 12 month 'any permitted route' season ticket from A to E. I often stop off at intermediate stations such as B to go shopping, etc. No problems here.
All services that I would normally use to travel from A to E run through D without stopping. Would my ticket permit me to travel to D by changing at C?

 

[LexyBoy]

Yes - you may travel between any stations on any permitted route between the stations shown on your Season ticket.

 

[rockford]

Yes - you may travel between any stations on any permitted route between the stations shown on your Season ticket.

Thanks. The whole 'permitted route' thing looks very confusing.
I got told by a ticket inspector yesterday that my ticket was only point-to-point. I managed to find out that that was incorrect, which then led me to the hypothetical situation above. Thanks for the reply.

 

[MikeWh]

I'd be inclined to email NXEA with details of that inspector because that is shocking advice.

 

[bb21]

Any route traceable without doubling back (pass through the same station twice) on map ST between Stansted and London Liverpool Street is a permitted route (so technically everywhere on that map is on your permitted route one way or another). You may stop off anywhere along the route for an unlimited number of times within your ticket validity.

I agree. It is shocking you were told what you just said. A complaint is long due.

 

[island]

That won't be the first piece of duff advice from NXEA that we've seen lately.

 

[jon0844]

I got told by a ticket inspector yesterday that my ticket was only point-to-point. I managed to find out that that was incorrect, which then led me to the hypothetical situation above. Thanks for the reply.

There's a good chance you'll meet very few members of staff that think that, but imagine if a train operator programmed all of its gatelines to reject season tickets if you weren't at a station that was your origin or destination.

Now you'd be in a situation where you'd have to seek assistance every time you went in or out of a station along the way, such as me with FCC and Potters Bar. When the gates are shut, there are times that the staff member isn't there. They're either at the other set of gates, or even outside the gates helping someone use a TVM.

So, I have to wait and potentially miss a train if I've stupidly thought that arriving a minute or two before the train goes would be sufficient time to walk through a gate and up a ramp to the platform!

A season ticket allows any break of journey between the origin and destination and travel at ANY time. There are/were some flexitime tickets with some restrictions, mainly for people going against the flow - but I think they still allow the same break of journey, just not travel in/out of London at peak times (but okay in reverse).

I am not sure how many TOCs still offer these. FCC axed them, which prompted the press about how ticket prices jumped so much (they didn't jump as such, it was a case of you now needing a more expensive ticket to replace the axed one).

 

[HawkeyeTheNoo]

What are the rules on breaking a journey on a regular ticket ie, a day return or single. Is that permitted?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Anytime ticket - Yes, at any point along a permitted route
Off-Peak ticket - In most cases yes, see restrictions
Advance ticket - No

 

[button_boxer]

It depends on the ticket. Anytime tickets yes, Advance tickets no, Off-peak tickets vary. Each off-peak ticket has an associated restriction code that specifies which trains it is valid on and whether or not breaks of journey are permitted in either direction. There are apparently tricks you can use on the National Rail Enquiries website to work out what restriction code applies to a particular ticket but I don't know offhand what they are.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....There are apparently tricks you can use on the National Rail Enquiries website to work out what restriction code applies to a particular ticket but I don't know offhand what they are.

With your planned journey searched, click "check Fares". Towards the bottom, in the "Tickets" section, click on the ticket type. In the restrictions section at the bottom, click on "view the specific 'Validity Code' applicable to the journey plan that you have selected." to view the restriction code.

 

[First class]

Anytime ticket - Yes, at any point along a permitted route
Off-Peak ticket - In most cases yes, see restrictions
Advance ticket - No

Although rare, some SOR (Anytime) fares hold a restriction usually involving "other" transport providers:

e.g. Belfast-London Anytime Return (SOR) holds 1X restriction and is priced by FSR. Seems a bit of quirk that such an "Anytime" ticket can only be used "Off Peak".

 

[wintonian]

Although rare, some SOR (Anytime) fares hold a restriction usually involving "other" transport providers:

e.g. Belfast-London Anytime Return (SOR) holds 1X restriction and is priced by FSR. Seems a bit of quirk that such an "Anytime" ticket can only be used "Off Peak".

Northbound it's unrestricted and the southbound: arrive in London at or after 10:05 is irrelevant unless breaking your journey overnight. So pretty much unrestricted.

But I see your point when there are SVR’s with a 05:00 when there are no trains before then, as an example.

 

[island]

Northbound there is a BOJ restriction, which is somewhat important (to the TOCs) as a peak-time ticket to Glasgow Cen/Qst is more expensive than a ticket to Belfast.

 

[rockford]

There's a good chance you'll meet very few members of staff that think that, but imagine if a train operator programmed all of its gatelines to reject season tickets if you weren't at a station that was your origin or destination.

Now you'd be in a situation where you'd have to seek assistance every time you went in or out of a station along the way, such as me with FCC and Potters Bar. When the gates are shut, there are times that the staff member isn't there. They're either at the other set of gates, or even outside the gates helping someone use a TVM.

So, I have to wait and potentially miss a train if I've stupidly thought that arriving a minute or two before the train goes would be sufficient time to walk through a gate and up a ramp to the platform!

A season ticket allows any break of journey between the origin and destination and travel at ANY time. There are/were some flexitime tickets with some restrictions, mainly for people going against the flow - but I think they still allow the same break of journey, just not travel in/out of London at peak times (but okay in reverse).

I am not sure how many TOCs still offer these. FCC axed them, which prompted the press about how ticket prices jumped so much (they didn't jump as such, it was a case of you now needing a more expensive ticket to replace the axed one).

Yesterday was the first time I've had a ticket inspector tell me that my ticket wasn't valid at B.

A few days before that, another inspector told me exactly what you state above - that as my ticket didn't start or end at B, the barriers wouldn't accept it. This seems to be true as the barriers don't accept my ticket.
I've had no end of problems at B since the introduction of the barriers, with the contracted staff telling me that I must try my ticket in the barrier in front of them, and them refusing to let me through unless I prove to them that it doesn't work (NXEA staff themselves are usually fine).
It's quite annoying, as I'm made to feel like I'm doing something devious by not attempting to put my ticket in the machine first, yet I know from experience that it won't accept it.
Rant over.

 

[bb21]

Definitely an issue to complain to NXEA about. There is even a small chance that they might not even be aware of the issue at BIS. Seem that the G4S standard is spreading to other areas of the country.

What happened next after he told you the ticket wasn't valid?

 

[junglejames]

Yesterday was the first time I've had a ticket inspector tell me that my ticket wasn't valid at Bishop's Stortford.

A few days before that, another inspector told me exactly what you state above - that as my ticket didn't start or end at BIS, the barriers wouldn't accept it. This seems to be true as the barriers don't accept my ticket.
I've had no end of problems at BIS since the introduction of the barriers, with the contracted staff telling me that I must try my ticket in the barrier in front of them, and them refusing to let me through unless I prove to them that it doesn't work (NXEA staff themselves are usually fine).
It's quite annoying, as I'm made to feel like I'm doing something devious by not attempting to put my ticket in the machine first, yet I know from experience that it won't accept it.
Rant over.

Barriers are a pain in the neck full stop. Another case where a perfectly legitimate ticket isnt accepted by them, thus delaying someones journey. The case against them is mounting by the day.

Sounds like you really should be writing to NXEA. The poor advice youve been given, and the attitude of the staff you have just described on the ticket barriers. There really is no need for it. Those staff you describe on the barriers are just treating people like babies. I wouldnt be impressed, and Id be writing quite a strongly worded letter if it was me.

 

[bb21]

Barriers are a pain in the neck full stop. Another case where a perfectly legitimate ticket isnt accepted by them, thus delaying someones journey. The case against them is mounting by the day.

Sounds like you really should be writing to NXEA. The poor advice youve been given, and the attitude of the staff you have just described on the ticket barriers. There really is no need for it. Those staff you describe on the barriers are just treating people like babies. I wouldnt be impressed, and Id be writing quite a strongly worded letter if it was me.

I totally agree. If I was in that situation, I would probably ask him to fetch me the T&C's of season tickets and read it out loud in front of me, and if needed, use the Routeing Guide step-by-step too.

 

[jon0844]

I told FCC on their 'meet the directors' forum and they said they'd look into it.. which of course they haven't. You are right in that you're often asked to try your ticket even when you know it won't work - and not only does it make you appear to be 'up to something' but it also means additional delays to get in, or out, of the station.

The gates give an error code, and it was only on this forum that I found out what it was because the staff manning the gates don't appear to know the codes (or at least only the basic ones, like passback).

Mind you, as a season ticket holder you've got the other hassle of having to queue up for 10 minutes to get ticket extensions because TVMs won't issue them. I'm on an NXEA train to Cheshunt, and missed one train because of it. A nice 30 minute delay to my journey which I can't claim for!!

 

[rockford]

What happened next after he told you the ticket wasn't valid?

I told her that I'd been using it to get on and off at B ever since I'd been issued the ticket and she let me through, saying she'd "have to check it".
I think the shocked look on my face told her that I was genuine.

Oddly enough, when I put my ticket in the barriers, it doesn't accept it, give an error code and then spit it out, as you'd expect (although it has done this in the past).
Instead it pulls it in-out-in-out repeatedly until you remove it. Odd.

 

[island]

Oddly enough, when I put my ticket in the barriers, it doesn't accept it, give an error code and then spit it out, as you'd expect (although it has done this in the past).
Instead it pulls it in-out-in-out repeatedly until you remove it. Odd.

That tends to suggest the barrier isn't able to read the ticket, rather than a logical rejection.

 

[sheff1]

Barriers are a pain in the neck full stop. Another case where a perfectly legitimate ticket isnt accepted by them, thus delaying someones journey. The case against them is mounting by the day.

And against the numpties who man them. You show them your ticket which you know will not work the barrier. Without looking at it they tell you to try it in the barrier. Amazingly it doesn't work. Oh, they say then let you through still without checking the ticket. So you could have a completely invalid ticket because they never read it.:roll:

Used to happen to me all the time at Nottingham with my perefectly valid ticket. Now I always leave and enter via the tram entrance where there are no barriers just a couple of checkers who will, usually, read the ticket.

 

[First class]

If a ticket is damaged/altered (e.g. magstrip wont read) it is the passengers responsibility to obtain a replacement under Condition 23.

23. If a ticket is damaged or altered
If a ticket has been damaged or has been tampered with or altered in any way, it is not
valid for travel. However, if you return it to the Train Company or travel agent which sold
it to you, they will arrange for a replacement ticket to be issued unless it has reason to
suspect that the ticket has, or will be, used for fraudulent or improper purposes. You may
have to pay a reasonable administrative charge (not exceeding £10) for the replacement.

If it is a simple code 07 or 09 magstrip failure, a replacement season will not be charged for.

If it is a code 125 or 126 rejection at the gates, the Break of Journey tables require updating by the TOC and there is nothing you can (or have to) do.

 

[jon0844]

How do you get a TOC to update the break of journey tables?

You ask the gateline staff; they say they'll report it while looking at you like you're just a pain in the neck for wanting to break your journey. They won't do anything but let you out using their key.

You then ask the station manager, twice, and get told the second time that it has been reported. Nothing changes, even though the manager does at least see the problem and acknowledges it shouldn't be like that.

You finally ask a director on an online forum and get told the gates should work properly (duh) and they'll send someone to look and see if they aren't (as if you made it up). Still nothing changes.

Where do you go next?

What's more, Cubic were updating the software at all the gates at the start of the year and it worked before that. Yet nobody from FCC seems to know that this happened, or why.

How can a TOC have no knowledge of what Cubic are doing? If I worked for Cubic, I'd be slipping in some code to accept tickets with a certain code on them - and then generate loads of free tickets for friends and family. From what I can see, they'd never be caught out!!

If the gates ARE fixed, it will probably be by pure chance - as a result of some other routine update.

(sorry for the long rant!)