• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Season Ticket Holder Discrimination

Status
Not open for further replies.

Domeyhead

Member
Joined
10 Nov 2009
Messages
392
Location
The South
In December a work colleague and I waited for two hours at Burnham as a result of the Didcot SC power failure.I am an annual season ticket holder recently renwewed, he a turn up and go once passenger. He complained and received his fare back in vouchers as per the Passenger's Charter. I complained and received.......nothing. FGW's response was (paraphrased) "......Our season ticket prices are adjusted according to our performance therefore when you renew your season ticket the price you pay will reflect our previous year's performance against regulatory targets
I have never read such utter cr*p in all my life. What makes then think I will even want another season ticket next January? WIll FGW even hold the franchise then? When did Season ticket holders ever indicate to FGW that they wanted to engage in this "collective bargaining"? Why should some season ticket holders endure misery in order to compensate all others? It is absurd nonsense on so many levels it is hard to know where to begin.
Have any other season ticket holders been victimised in this way by lazy profiteering TOCs Customer "service" teams?
I will definitely be taking this further but would be interested in whether forum contributors think I should pursue it via
1) the TUCC
2) The Rail Regulator
3) Direct to the Dept for Transport via my MP
4) Barry Doe
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Mojo

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
7 Aug 2005
Messages
21,172
Location
0035
This is because FGW offers passenger charter discounts and void days on their seasons rather than the "Delay Repay" system used by newer franchises (except LOROL as that is not a DfT franchise).

Delay Repay is much more favourable to passengers in general as the reason for getting a refund also includes things which were excluded previously, such as fatalities. Under this system, season ticket holders apply for a refund which is calculated based on the number of days use that they would expect a season ticket holder to make. Because of this, in most cases, the amount in compensation would still be lower than what someone with a single ticket would receive.

There are cases in which passenger charters can also be beneficial to the passengers, but in a way that could perhaps be considered "unfair." When FGW were having all those troubles a few years ago I got a 20% discount on my season ticket, but it was extremely uncommon for a train I used to be late! Under a Delay Repay scheme I would have got zilch but got a nice discount under the charter.
 

Flamingo

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2010
Messages
6,806
That's the system, and the reason that season tickets are mile for mile, the cheapest way of travelling, especially when compared with the walk-up fare for similar flexibility.

But if you are determined to complain:
1. What is TUCC? Googling it reveals several entries, none of which would be interested, I would say: http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=TU...s=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a

2. The Rail Regulator might be worth having a moan at, but I am sure they are already well aware of the situation regarding refunds on season tickets

3. DfT via your MP will give the MP (or their researcher) something to do to justify their position, but again, I am sure that the DfT are already aware of the refund situation

4. Why Barry Doe? Why not Jeremy Clarkson, Richard Littlejohn, or any other newspaper or magazine columnist? However, I'm sure they would be glad of an excuse for a subject, writing 500 words a week it must be a challenge finding subjects.

If you want to qualify for a refund any time there is an issue, then the quick and dirty solution is to buy a separate ticket for each journey, then you can claim your refund if delayed, provided the delay is caused by something that is valid under the published T&C for refunds.

The advantage to you under the present system is that whenever a discount is triggered, then you get the discount whether you were on any of the affected trains, or tucked up in bed, or out of the country.

When FGW managed to get it's act together enough that free days and discounts stopped being triggered, I can remember several season-ticket holders having a whinge at me because of the "increase in fares".

p.s If you want to complain to someone about the delay, try: http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/1346.aspx for contact details, as Network Rail operate the tracks, not FGW. We view Network Rail as an Act of God, as we never know when they will strike, and they seem to be immune from criticism.
 
Last edited:

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
34,248
FGW's response was (paraphrased) "......Our season ticket prices are adjusted according to our performance therefore when you renew your season ticket the price you pay will reflect our previous year's performance against regulatory targets
I have never read such utter cr*p in all my life. What makes then think I will even want another season ticket next January? WIll FGW even hold the franchise then? When did Season ticket holders ever indicate to FGW that they wanted to engage in this "collective bargaining"? Why should some season ticket holders endure misery in order to compensate all others?

Have you not had a season before now? This has been the situation for years, and will continue until the TOC is changed to 'delay repay'.

If you don't want or need another season when the current one ends you can have a rebate AIUI.

Whether FGW hold the franchise or not is irrelevant, the new franchiseee will take on existing responsibilities. If as expected the replacement franchisee changes to 'delay repay' there will be an overlap where both schemes remain operational.

Do you think 'misery' is the right word for this minor hassle?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

1. What is TUCC?

(Local) Transport (Rail since 1993) Users Consultation Commitees. They were all closed down under the 2005 Railways Act.

Replaced by the 'national watchdog' Passenger Focus, and in London area by London Travelwatch.
 
Last edited:

Domeyhead

Member
Joined
10 Nov 2009
Messages
392
Location
The South
Thanks contributors. "Misery" was well chosen in this particular case because of the complete lack of passenger information, it was a very cold, late afternoon in late December, I had 100 miles to get home, the station was so crowded even if a train arrived we wouldn't get on it etc etc. TOC's and their staff have still not learned that passengers are far more passive and pliable when kept fully informed, even if the station announcer only says - "I don't know either but at least you know as much as me now", But that's another story. TUCC was thre Transport Users Consultative Committee but their name has since changed to Passenger Focus or some other bloody Quango so apologies. Barry Doe aka the "fare Dealer" seems to be well respected and knowledgable in his particular field, I don't think he displays any of Clarkson's or Littlejohn's traits but he is good for airing an injustice (which this is when you pay £4.5k for the privilege). One thing I didn;t understand Flamingo and SWT - are you saying I may get some sort of performance related rebate at the end of the year even I don't renew my season ticket? If so how is it done - travel vouchers? cash? upgrades?
 

Old Timer

Established Member
Joined
24 Aug 2009
Messages
3,702
Location
On a plane somewhere at 35,000
In December a work colleague and I waited for two hours at Burnham as a result of the Didcot SC power failure.I am an annual season ticket holder recently renwewed, he a turn up and go once passenger. He complained and received his fare back in vouchers as per the Passenger's Charter. I complained and received.......nothing. FGW's response was (paraphrased) "......Our season ticket prices are adjusted according to our performance therefore when you renew your season ticket the price you pay will reflect our previous year's performance against regulatory targets
I have never read such utter cr*p in all my life. What makes then think I will even want another season ticket next January? WIll FGW even hold the franchise then? When did Season ticket holders ever indicate to FGW that they wanted to engage in this "collective bargaining"? Why should some season ticket holders endure misery in order to compensate all others? It is absurd nonsense on so many levels it is hard to know where to begin.
Have any other season ticket holders been victimised in this way by lazy profiteering TOCs Customer "service" teams?
I presume you wish to forget the discounts that you receive by purchasing an annual season ticket then ? The fact that weekends are free, and that bank and public holidays are not charged for, and that neither is your annual leave ? No-one has forced you to buy a season ticket and if you wish to benefit from the ability to claim a refund on the same basis as a normal ticket, then you are free to buy that type of ticket at any time. No one has twisted your arm behind your back.

You are paying far less for an unrestricted ticket, than if you had bought separate tickets for your journeys. I suggest that you do the simple maths of comparing like for like ordinary tickets, compared to what you pay annually. Maybe on that pro-rata basis your work colleague might want to complain that you have paid much less than he has, especially taking into account any adjustment when you renew.

I doubt FGW has also forced you to live and work in different locations - that is your choice as is the mode of transport you choose to travel. Perhaps having told us of the one occasion when you have been disrupted through no fault of FGWs, you will tell of how many undisrupted journeys you have had ?

It seems that you want the best of all worlds. I imagine you would be back demanding a refund if you bought an item in a shop and weeks later it was reduced ?

I suggest that your efforts would be better spent instigating claims for loss and damages from those who cause disruption to the Railway Industry.

The week before last my journey home was delayed by an accident on the motorway, as I was the two weeks preceding that. My last three flights into the UK (to two different airports) have resulted in me suffering long holdups due to no fault of mine. Maybe I should write to the DfT and claim a reduction in my Road Tax ?

Misery is a relative term, that those caught up in the great Ash Crisis and sleeping in airport lounges across the world may feel more appropriate than a two hour delay.
 
Last edited:

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
78,238
Location
Yorkshire
The present system on FGW is being phased out and replaced with Delay Repay.

In the mean time if you think you are getting delayed a lot, buy separate tickets and claim on each ticket if you are delayed.

However you should be grateful that train companies pay up at all when there are delays out of their control on the Railway. A taxi company would not pay you anything if there were delays on the roads. Indeed, they would make you pay them for the delay!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The week before last was delayed by an accident on the motorway, as I was the two weeks preceding that. My last three flights into the UK (to two different airports) have resulted in me suffering long holdups due to no fault of mine. maybe I should write to the DfT and claim a reduction in my Road Tax ?
No because there's no such thing as road tax, however if you were in a taxi, you could claim off the taxi, but they'd have already made a claim off you! I wonder what happens when someone is in a taxi and they hear that they are going to be held for a couple of hours? I'd be tempted to say to the driver "right, I'm getting off here!" as I wouldn't be wanting to pay more in such circumstances.
 

Old Timer

Established Member
Joined
24 Aug 2009
Messages
3,702
Location
On a plane somewhere at 35,000
No because there's no such thing as road tax.....
OK, so I have used the "normal" but incorrect terminology, so let us say Road Fund Licence ?

Right I pay for this, I am out of the UK most of my time. Why should I not be able to pay a proportion, and why when I pay for access to a road network should I not be able to claim something back when I am delayed because free right of passage is not available ?

Parallels can be drawn with the Railway situation here. The Railway contract is for a journey from A to B with no guarantee of the time or even the mode of carriage. The RFL gives me the right to unencumbered movement along the Queens Highway, it of course being an Offence to prevent my movement. By failing to ensure this the DfT are in breach. :)
 

Flamingo

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2010
Messages
6,806
(Local) Transport (Rail since 1993) Users Consultation Commitees. They were all closed down under the 2005 Railways Act.

Replaced by the 'national watchdog' Passenger Focus, and in London area by London Travelwatch.

Aha, before my time then. Thank you.
 

DaveNewcastle

Established Member
Joined
21 Dec 2007
Messages
7,387
Location
Newcastle (unless I'm out)
. . . . If you want to complain to someone about the delay, try: http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/1346.aspx for contact details, as Network Rail operate the tracks, not FGW. We view Network Rail as an Act of God, as we never know when they will strike, and they seem to be immune from criticism.
But not immune from penalties!

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/nav.1858

22 Nov 2010 a penalty of £3m on Network Rail infrastructure Ltd.
9 May 2008 a penalty of £14m on Network Rail infrastructure Ltd.
6 Sept 2007 a penalty of £2.4m on Network Rail infrastructure Ltd.
 

transmanche

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
6,021
No because there's no such thing as road tax
OK, so I have used the "normal" but incorrect terminology, so let us say Road Fund Licence ?
There's no such thing as a Road Fund Licence. ;) The official name is Vehicle Excise Duty.

There has been no connection between the money raised from 'tax discs' and the money spent on road building/maintenance since 1936.

The RFL gives me the right to unencumbered movement along the Queens Highway
VED does no such thing. It's just a tax on owning a car - unless you complete and submit a statutory off-road notice (SORN). Some vehicles carry a zero rate of VED, although still need to display a tax disc.
 

barrykas

Established Member
Joined
19 Sep 2006
Messages
1,579
Getting back to the original topic for a moment, Great Western are currently offering a 5% Punctuality discount for season ticket renewals on their "Thames Valley" charter service group, and there have been NO "Void" days declared in the past year. (Current "leader" in the void day stakes being Virgin on Euston - Scotland and Birmingham - Scotland, at 20 and 19 days respectively).

To qualify for a charter discount, you need to satisfy the following conditions:
  • It has to be a renewal of one month or longer.
  • Renewal must occur within 28 days of expiry of the previous Season Ticket/Travelcard.
  • The renewed ticket must be for the "same or similar" journey. (i.e. it must be have the same or similar starting station, route and destination as for the previous ticket). - So, for example, if the original ticket was Didcot Parkway - London, and the renewal was only Reading - London, you'd get the discount. (Both being in the same Charter Service Group). If the renewal was Bicester North - London, however, you wouldn't.
  • The renewed ticket must be for the same period or less as the original ticket.

Cheers,

Barry
 

Old Timer

Established Member
Joined
24 Aug 2009
Messages
3,702
Location
On a plane somewhere at 35,000
There's no such thing as a Road Fund Licence. ;) The official name is Vehicle Excise Duty.

There has been no connection between the money raised from 'tax discs' and the money spent on road building/maintenance since 1936.

VED does no such thing. It's just a tax on owning a car - unless you complete and submit a statutory off-road notice (SORN). Some vehicles carry a zero rate of VED, although still need to display a tax disc.
:roll: :roll: :roll: We are impressed by your ability to cut and paste from Wickipedia.
I think the vast majority of readers will understand however if pedantry is to be the case, I would make the following points for your information.

HM Customs and Excise define a "Duty" as a tax . Source : Customs Duty, Excise Duty and Import VAT: introduction

The phrase Car Tax is recognised by the Oxford English Dictionary

We all of us know that hypothecation has not occurred for many many years.

My right to travel without hindrance on the Queens Highway is set out below :-
Union with England Act 1707 and Union with Scotland Act 1706

IV. That all the Subjects of the United Kingdom of Great Britain shall from and after the Union have full Freedom and Intercourse of Trade and Navigation to and from any port or place within the said United Kingdom and the Dominions and Plantations thereunto belonging And that there be a Communication of all other Rights Privileges and Advantages which do or may belong to the Subjects of either Kingdom except where it is otherwayes expressly agreed in these Articles

My right to travel is enshrined in case law and common law

1. A traveller exercising their common and ancient 'right for all……at all seasons of the year freely and at their will to pass and repass without let or hindrance, and without charge.'
2. A traveller is entitled to stop on the King's Highway for so long as is necessary for the purposes of his journey.

Therefore having paid my Vehicle Excise Duty (Tax) and displaying the relevant tax disc, I may travel over the Queen's Highway

For the purposes of pedantry I have to report that the various official Government websites refer to Car Tax and the disc as a tax disc.

Direct.gov.uk - Motoring/Owning A Vehicle How To Tax Your Vehicle
 

transmanche

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
6,021
HM Customs and Excise define a "Duty" as a tax.
Yes, that's why I referred to it as a tax on owning a car, or "car tax".

The phrase Car Tax is recognised by the Oxford English Dictionary
Yes, that's why I referred to it as a car tax. Not "road tax" or "road fund licence", but car tax.

My right to travel without hindrance on the Queens Highway is
... nothing whatsoever to do with the payment of car tax.

For the purposes of pedantry I have to report that the various official Government websites refer to Car Tax and the disc as a tax disc.
Yes, that's why I referred to it as a "tax disc". And I guess you also noticed that they didn't refer to it as "road tax" or "road fund licence".

Thank you for confirming you agree with each of my earlier points.
 

Old Timer

Established Member
Joined
24 Aug 2009
Messages
3,702
Location
On a plane somewhere at 35,000
Yes, that's why I referred to it as a tax on owning a car, or "car tax"..
Unfortunately for you as a pedant it is NOT a tax on owning a car. There is no correlation between owning a car and requiring to pay VED.

For further clarification, even HMRC are aware that the term Road Fund Licence is in common use and they even refer to it in their definitions

The vehicle Excise licence - sometimes called a ‘tax disc’ or ‘road fund’ licence - issued under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 by the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) or its agents.
If you really must get your kicks by pedantry at least make sure of them first ?

Anyway whilst you may enjoy the debate, I am sure that the rest of us are groaning at the use of it by someone who is happy to demonstrate their skills at cut and paste from Wickipedia.

It hardly counts as an earth shattering off topic subject so perhaps we can now return the thread to its original topic ? :)
 

transmanche

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
6,021
Anyway whilst you may enjoy the debate, I am sure that the rest of us are groaning at the use of it by someone who is happy to demonstrate their skills at cut and paste from Wickipedia.
That's twice you have accused me of doing something I haven't done. I didn't cut and paste anything from 'Wickipedia'. Or Wikipedia.

I'm just happy that you agreed with the points I made. Even though you apparently seem reluctant to admit it. Never mind eh.
 

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
Back on topic then!

As a season ticket holder, I aprpeciate the big saving I make on daily tickets. I was once delayed for two hour son a twenty minute journey, due to flooding ina tunnel. We went out, stopped for ages, and had to return to the station (eventually), where no one knew how long it would be before services were resumed or alternative transport was laid on.

I have never been compensated for that delay, nor did I seek any compensation. There were no discounts, or void days, nor did I expect any for a one off incident like that. Such is life, occasionally you will be caught up in soemthing like that, just shrug your shoulders and carry on!

Nowadays, with delay repay more widespread I would probably be entitled to something but I still wouldn't go through the hassle of making a claim.
 

Domeyhead

Member
Joined
10 Nov 2009
Messages
392
Location
The South
I presume you wish to forget the discounts that you receive by purchasing an annual season ticket then ? The fact that weekends are free, and that bank and public holidays are not charged for, and that neither is your annual leave ? No-one has forced you to buy a season ticket and if you wish to benefit from the ability to claim a refund on the same basis as a normal ticket, then you are free to buy that type of ticket at any time. No one has twisted your arm behind your back.

You are paying far less for an unrestricted ticket, than if you had bought separate tickets for your journeys. I suggest that you do the simple maths of comparing like for like ordinary tickets, compared to what you pay annually. Maybe on that pro-rata basis your work colleague might want to complain that you have paid much less than he has, especially taking into account any adjustment when you renew.

I doubt FGW has also forced you to live and work in different locations - that is your choice as is the mode of transport you choose to travel. Perhaps having told us of the one occasion when you have been disrupted through no fault of FGWs, you will tell of how many undisrupted journeys you have had ?

It seems that you want the best of all worlds. I imagine you would be back demanding a refund if you bought an item in a shop and weeks later it was reduced ?

I suggest that your efforts would be better spent instigating claims for loss and damages from those who cause disruption to the Railway Industry.

The week before last my journey home was delayed by an accident on the motorway, as I was the two weeks preceding that. My last three flights into the UK (to two different airports) have resulted in me suffering long holdups due to no fault of mine. Maybe I should write to the DfT and claim a reduction in my Road Tax ?

Misery is a relative term, that those caught up in the great Ash Crisis and sleeping in airport lounges across the world may feel more appropriate than a two hour delay.

To take your points in turn -
1) No I don't forget them and I didn;t say so. A pro-rated equivalence was what I expected.
2) What has weekend travel, cheap breaks or any of that got to to do with the lack of service? Are you seriously suggesting that anyone offering any kind of frill or extra can use that to offset or deflect a complaint? Did I buy my season for the purpose of weekend trips to the zoo with my family? Is that relevant?
3) "No-one forced me to buy a ticket....twisted my arm...." What on earth are you talking about? No-one "forced me" to live/work/eat etc where and what I do but you will find that despite the best efforts of the TOCs to avoid responsibility for the one service that they exist to provide, every service provider in every field is now required to do this. TOCs in particular. I buy a season for the obvious reason of avoiding an indeterminate daily queueing to repeat an activity pointlessly. and for the blindingly obvious reason that they exist exactly for the purpose of commuters making repetitive journeys. I might ask you why you pay for a "season" of electricity rather than feed your meter with coins every day. It is an asinine point to put it mildly.
4) Your shop analogy is completely misguided. DO you not understand the difference between a good and a service?
5) The causes of a delay are not for me to investigate. Your implication that somehow it is down to me to research for the bridge bash, the suicide, the breake cylinder failure on the class 165 in front etc etc is spurious and irrelevant. I pay for a service. THe service has an SLA. The SLA was not met. My argument was about the unnecessarily unequal treatment of the regular and occasional traveller. Try and keep up.
The whole tone of your note is unpleasantly bizarre and defensive, as though a criticism of the railways is a personal affront - does rail mean so much to you that the inconsistent treatment of a service failure by a service user requires you - a casual bystander - to throw up so much irrelevant chaff in the face of the complainant suggesting he was at fault for using a train anyway when he could have used a car, or moved house or changed jobs? Are you ill?
 

Flamingo

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2010
Messages
6,806
I think that basically, those are the terms and conditions of season tickets. If you don't agree with them then don't buy them. Simple.

You can't have the season-ticket discount, but the walk-up ticket T&C (or at least those T&C which happen suit you).

If you were not on any of the delayed trains in a period, would you be willing to forego the void days and discounts? I bet not.

If you don't like it, look up the T&C of National Express bus (one available alternative) - not a mention of compensation for delays on there.

**** happens - sometimes you have to suck it up. Compensation is not available for everything that happens in life - if you think otherwise, you watch too many adverts on daytime TV.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
78,238
Location
Yorkshire
Domeyhead - there is no point arguing against the current system used by FGW because..

1) You agreed to it when you purchased your season ticket;
2) It is already generally accepted that is unfair;
3) It's up to the DfT to specify Delay Repay in franchises;
4) They are in the process of doing this as franchises come up for renewal;
5) I expect the Great Western franchise will be on Delay Repay next time their franchise is renewed ;)

You're basically arguing for a system that almost certainly will be put in place, it's just a matter of when. It's already in place on many other franchises.
 

Old Timer

Established Member
Joined
24 Aug 2009
Messages
3,702
Location
On a plane somewhere at 35,000
To take your points in turn -
1) No I don't forget them and I didn;t say so. A pro-rated equivalence was what I expected.
This arrangement has never applied to season tickets. You already receive a considerable pecuniary advantage over infrequent travellers.

..2) What has weekend travel, cheap breaks or any of that got to to do with the lack of service? Are you seriously suggesting that anyone offering any kind of frill or extra can use that to offset or deflect a complaint? Did I buy my season for the purpose of weekend trips to the zoo with my family? Is that relevant?
As you clearly did not understand the point - The illustration demonstrates the amount of days which are not charged for, yet which are still available for travel. It has nothing to do with your "complaint"

..... "No-one forced me to buy a ticket....twisted my arm...." What on earth are you talking about? No-one "forced me" to live/work/eat etc where and what I do but you will find that despite the best efforts of the TOCs to avoid responsibility for the one service that they exist to provide, every service provider in every field is now required to do this. TOCs in particular. I buy a season for the obvious reason of avoiding an indeterminate daily queueing to repeat an activity pointlessly. and for the blindingly obvious reason that they exist exactly for the purpose of commuters making repetitive journeys. I might ask you why you pay for a "season" of electricity rather than feed your meter with coins every day. It is an asinine point to put it mildly.
Your over dramatic opening rant was aimed at the TOC who were actually NOT responsible for the delay. How exactly did you intend them to run trains ? You obviously are not aware that the only requirement incumbent upon transport service providers is to supply you with a journey. There is no guarantee at what time or how long that shall take. That is a condition upon which you purchase your ticket irrespectively of what you may think. Another demonstration of the fault in your reasoning is that of Utilities suppliers - who can disconnect you for up to 24 hours with recompense or warning.

...4) Your shop analogy is completely misguided. DO you not understand the difference between a good and a service?
I certainly do, some on here including yourself appear not to though. Your "service" was supplied to you as you travelled home. Despite agreed conditions for the use of Season Tickets, YOU want then changed to suit yourself and presumably because your colleague has gained a form of financial benefit you perceive you should have received, despite the the fact that you already receive a considerable discount on a comparable basis.

....5) The causes of a delay are not for me to investigate. Your implication that somehow it is down to me to research for the bridge bash, the suicide, the breake cylinder failure on the class 165 in front etc etc is spurious and irrelevant.
I suggest you re-read and understand this time ? If you are that desperate to gain financial recompense for delay then this should be taken against the individual / organisation which has caused the loss or damage. This is something well entrenched in Law. Its brake cylinder by the way.

..I pay for a service. THe service has an SLA. The SLA was not met.
No you do not pay for a service at all. Your Contract is for a journey from a specified point to a specified point.

There is no SLA. Your rights, responsibilities and obligations are set out in the National Conditions of Carriage.

....My argument was about the unnecessarily unequal treatment of the regular and occasional traveller. Try and keep up.
No it was not about the unequal treatment . You get a substantial discount for the number of journeys you make against the occasional traveller. You are also given additional days where the services have been disrupted sufficiently.

The occasional traveller was given a token payment. You want both, and I think most on here will form there own judgement on that.

..... The whole tone of your note is unpleasantly bizarre and defensive, as though a criticism of the railways is a personal affront -
Your initial rant was completely flawed, attacked a TOC who had no bearing on the cause of your delay. The over dramatisation .... [removed]

....does rail mean so much to you that the inconsistent treatment of a service failure by a service user requires you - a casual bystander - to throw up so much irrelevant chaff ..
I find your tone and attitude very strange. You have taken one single instance of a delay, and then started to act and rant like an adolescent simply because your colleague gained an advantage. Presumably it has taken you some three months to wind yourself up to this state ?

You have had a perfectly reasonable response from the TOC, but because this does not suit you it becomes "absurd nonsense", "utter cr*p".

You then run a wholly off the wall argument about "collective bargaining" (do you know what this is ?) which is as irrelevant as it is wrong.

You say
Why should some season ticket holders endure misery in order to compensate all others?
. What are you on about ? What misery are you suffering ? Can you provide evidence that the staff were "lazy" ?

.......at fault for using a train anyway when he could have used a car, or moved house or changed jobs?
It is your choice to work and live where you do, that is a statement of fact. All commuters accept that there will be delays and disruption to their journeys and take it on the chin. You are in a far better position than someone who has to travel by road, with NO compensation. Your journey is almost certainly far cheaper by rail than by car anyway.

Are you ill?
I think we will have to contrast my behaviour against yours and the irrational ravings of your first post in making such a decision, dont you ?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

pendolino

Member
Joined
22 Nov 2010
Messages
737
I think we will have to contrast my behaviour against yours and the irrational ravings of your first post in making such a decision, dont you ?

The OP may well be going overboard with his/her complaints on this thread, but you just lost all credibility by posting this:

The over dramatisation made we wonder [removed]
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
You are correct OT, at least as far as I am concerned! I chsoe to live in Llanelli and work in Swansea and I do accept that sometimes, and it is very occasionally over the course of each year, my journey will be quite badly delayed. One of the roads we use a lot is closed for 13 weeks (it will be longer) involving a lenghty detour and extra expense in petrol and running costs, but we don't get any sort of compensation for it!
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
78,238
Location
Yorkshire
The OP may well be going overboard with his/her complaints on this thread, but you just lost all credibility by posting this:
I have removed the inappropriate comment (and your quote of it) I agree it was inappropriate.

I have huge respect for OT's knowledge and experience and for him as a person, however OT - I do wish you could be a little more careful in what you write at times! (though you can of course think it and just not type it!)

Yes, you are right there are flaws in what Domeyhead is saying but, ultimately his concerns will be addressed by Delay Repay in time (unless there is a change in government policy) and in the mean time he will just have to accept it.

Can I also remind anyone who finds a post that is inappropriate that it is important that you use the "Report" feature. This appears in the bottom left of each post. Without that, your concerns may not be addressed as moderators do NOT read all topics. Also if you can not quote the inappropriate comment then that would assist us. Sorry if this sounds like I am moaning, I'm not really, honestly! Just that it will greatly help us to help you. We are hugely grateful to people who report messages when appropriate as it really helps us a lot. Thanks :)

Anyway I don't think there is much to add to this topic, the system is being phased out and replaced with Delay Repay anyway.
 

Old Timer

Established Member
Joined
24 Aug 2009
Messages
3,702
Location
On a plane somewhere at 35,000
I have removed the inappropriate comment (and your quote of it) I agree it was inappropriate.

I have huge respect for OT's knowledge and experience and for him as a person, however OT - I do wish you could be a little more careful in what you write at times! (though you can of course think it and just not type it!).
Simply the cut and thrust of debate and a fair retort to being accused of being (mentally?) ill by the OP I thought.
 

RJ

Established Member
Joined
25 Jun 2005
Messages
8,816
Location
Back office
Have any other season ticket holders been victimised in this way by lazy profiteering TOCs Customer "service" teams?
I will definitely be taking this further but would be interested in whether forum contributors think I should pursue it via
1) the TUCC
2) The Rail Regulator
3) Direct to the Dept for Transport via my MP
4) Barry Doe


Well I have an Annual Travelcard - every time I'm delayed, my local TOC who operates a Delay Repay scheme, refunds me a little bit - something like 1/586th of the cost. That's about a 1/4th of the cost of the daily equivalent so I feel that's fair enough.
 
Last edited:

Domeyhead

Member
Joined
10 Nov 2009
Messages
392
Location
The South
I continue to be surprised at Old Timer who defends a system (and a TOC) that none of us find fair when executed "at the coal face". Insurance companies who try and hide restrictive clauses in the masses of policy terms and conditions are rightly dragged before the ombudsman, and I am pleased to say that the train operating companies which still seek to hide behind the Victorian device of a mass of legal "COnditions of Carriage" clauses which I seem to remember were once posted at every station are finding it harder to walk away from their obligations in the 21st century. I am willing to bet that we could walk onto almost any train and find that not a single passenger has ever read the conditions attached to their ticket any more than OT probably read the entire policy conditions that came with his motor insurance. I am at least as well aware as he is of the problems caused by the disjoin at the rail/wheel interface but as an inconvenienced traveller I am not going to seek solace in a sillly pub quiz debate of "I know more about the railways than you". (and btw "breake" was clearly a typographical error though I thank him for pointing it out, unlike his use of "there" instead of "their" which is a grammatical error. Pedantry just gets in the way of more interesting debate so let's agree to drop it )
Moving on, Service providers in all spheres are at the mercy of those who provide goods and services to them - so why keep spinning on this? Nobody disputes or cares. As the moderator has pointed out Delay Repay is coming in to replace the unfair system I complained about which perhaps vindicates my complaint about the unequitable treatment of season ticket holder on FGW compared to occassional or ad hoc passengers .
Please don't censor his comments on my account - I take them in the spirit in which they were given and they don't hurt!
 

ralphchadkirk

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
5,754
Location
Essex
I am willing to bet that we could walk onto almost any train and find that not a single passenger has ever read the conditions attached to their ticket any more than OT probably read the entire policy conditions that came with his motor insurance.

That's their problem then. If they don't read the conditions then they will just have to accept it when they break them. Ignorance is not an excuse.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top