Season ticket excess

[nibbles]

Hi

I posted on this forum last year where you kindly helped me out with a query. I was travelling on a monthly season ticket London Euston - Wilmslow (typically taking the 0735 from EUS) but wanted to change my journey to take an alternative train (0730 from EUS to Wigan) and I was refused entry to the train as I did not have a valid ticket as the train did not stop at Crewe and although I normally pay the excess on the train the folks at the barrier stopped me from boarding full stop.

One of your members helped me out and found a valid route to Wilmslow via Wigan. See below.

So today I happened to be going to Warrington with said season ticket and fell upon a different train manager who made me pay an excess which was the difference between EUS-WML and EUS-Warrington. I showed him the routing tables and the maps (which I have printouts of) and he said I couldn't travel further north than WML on the map so that even though map MA has Warrington on it - it is not valid as it is further north than WML. I tried to point out it's on a different line but he wasn't having any of it and it wasn't worth arguing the toss.

Is this true? I am not entirely sure of my arguments here so it's hard to be as convincing as I need to be perhaps!

thanks in advance

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Clagmonster

Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkie
If the train was first call Warrington, then they aren't going to let you on as that's beyond the last point at which your ticket is valid. (although I've not checked, someone may correct me and find that there is a bizarre permitted route to Wilmslow via Warrington but I doubt it, and good luck trying it if there is )

According to the routeing guide:
Euston is a member of the London Group, Wlimslow is a member of the Wilsmlow group
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File...identifier.pdf page 67

GM+MA is a valid routeing permission for London Group-Wilmslow group
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File...identifier.pdf page 599

Map MA allows:
Euston-Willesden Jn-Watford Jn-Bletchley-Rugby-Nuneaton-Tamworth-Lichfield-Rugeley-Stafford-Crewe-Warrington
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File...ments/maps.pdf page 67

Map GM allows:
Warrington-Manchester-Wilmslow
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File...ments/maps.pdf page 41

Therefore, the ticket is valid via Warrington so is valid on said train. To travel through to Wigan, a Warrington-Wigan ticket should be purchased.

Yorkie, if this wasn't valid, I would agree with everythinh you have said.

 

[First class]

So you paid about £3, right?

Now if this is the first time it's happened, and not been stopped before, I would ignore it for the sake of £3. You'll have to write to Virgin, possibly Passenger Focus/ATOC and wait for a reply.

If it continues to happen, submit ALL of the "excess" charges and forward them to Virgin and ask for an explanation of why the route is deemed invalid by their staff.

 

[nibbles]

Hi

Actually it was £18. I am travelling in first - which surprised me too. As any time I have paid excesses previously it has been a good deal cheaper.
N

 

[island]

On the separate matter of paying on-train, you're not supposed to do this if your departing station has an open booking office. There isn't any extra charge for buying Anytime tickets on board with Virgin, but they are still entitled to make you buy before boarding. (Out of spite, you should buy at the LM office near platform 8, to give them the 9% commission!)

 

[snail]

As there is no other way of using GM+MA than changing at Warrington (Wilmslow being on Map MA) I say you should raise this with Virgin so they can have a word with the Train Manager and correct his misinterpretation of the Routeing Guide.

There are certain issues of interpretation in the RG but nowhere does it restrict according to geographic location so long the stations are on the map and you are not doubling back.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

GM+MA could be used Euston-Crewe-Wilmslow, however I agree it is valid via Warrington (unless there is an easement that has been missed).

 

[snail]

GM+MA could be used Euston-Crewe-Wilmslow, however I agree it is valid via Warrington (unless there is an easement that has been missed).

Yes, but MA on its own covers that route, therefore GM must add further options of which the only possible is Warrington-Manchester-Wilmslow. Or it that applying too much logic?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I'm not saying it doesn't add other routes (clearly it does), but just because GM+MA shows the additional route, it doesn't mean that is the only route it shows. It is probable that adding a map will show more routes (it is proved to be the case here), but it doesn't neccesarily follow that adding a map must add more routes.

 

[bb21]

I showed him the routing tables and the maps (which I have printouts of) and he said I couldn't travel further north than WML on the map so that even though map MA has Warrington on it - it is not valid as it is further north than WML. I tried to point out it's on a different line but he wasn't having any of it and it wasn't worth arguing the toss.

Is this true?

Err. Rubbish! A classic case of people making up their own rules as they go along.

Yes, but MA on its own covers that route, therefore GM must add further options of which the only possible is Warrington-Manchester-Wilmslow. Or it that applying too much logic?

No such requirement exists.

On the subject of excesses, if the season was not valid to Warrington, then the OP should have been sold a brand new single ticket from the last point en route where the season was valid to. An excess cannot be issued in conjunction with a season ticket. This is detailed in railway internal material released in response to in FOI request. Hence he has done it incorrectly even if the season ticket was not valid to Warrington.

If you think that £18 is worth your time and effort chasing them up for then by all means get in touch with Virgin.

 

[LexyBoy]

On the subject of excesses, if the season was not valid to Warrington, then the OP should have been sold a brand new single ticket from the last point en route where the season was valid to.

Is it definitely the last point en route or is it the last station called at where the Season was valid? If the passenger held a non-season ticket, and travelled beyond validity, they should be sold a ticket from the last station at which their ticket was valid. Obviously with a Season the passenger would be valid with a ticket from the last on-route station, I'm just asking whether they should be sold that ticket where facility to buy before travel was available, rather than a ticket from the last calling point.

If that's a bit unclear, another example: I get on a non-stop train from Reading to Swindon with my Season to Didcot. Would I be charged for DID-SWI or RDG-SWI? (I'd expect to pay the full distance as I passed up the opportunity to buy before boarding).

 

[AlterEgo]

The ticket was valid and no extra ticket (I assume it's an extra ticket and not strictly an excess) should have been sold.

Did you get a name?

 

[nibbles]

Hi folks thanks for the replies. Yes I did get a name so I can complain to virgin and sounds like I should get a refund. I just wanted to be more sure of myself in arguing the point because part of the reason now for me getting this season ticket is that it does give me the option of going to Warrington and if it in fact doesn't then it's less useful! I have tried in the past buying a ticket pre-boarding - but this does involve booking in advance if I want to use the machines (which defeats the point of the season as I want the flexibility of whichever trains) or queuing up to buy from an agent (which I have done in the past but clearly means I need to be at the station in good time to do so) ... so partly it's selfish on my part as I enjoy the flexibility of being able to arrive late and board whichever train suits my purposes.
Thanks for the help all

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Is it definitely the last point en route or is it the last station called at where the Season was valid? If the passenger held a non-season ticket, and travelled beyond validity, they should be sold a ticket from the last station at which their ticket was valid. Obviously with a Season the passenger would be valid with a ticket from the last on-route station, I'm just asking whether they should be sold that ticket where facility to buy before travel was available, rather than a ticket from the last calling point.

If that's a bit unclear, another example: I get on a non-stop train from Reading to Swindon with my Season to Didcot. Would I be charged for DID-SWI or RDG-SWI? (I'd expect to pay the full distance as I passed up the opportunity to buy before boarding).

I can't view the excess fares rules atm, but I think (from memory) it is the last point at which the ticket held is valid, so for a single/return, it would be the last station called at, but with a season it would be the last station on the route (condition 19). I think where the excess fares differ is that when they are bought before travel or where there was no facility to do so, it is the cheapest available fare, but when there was facilities and it was bought onboard, it is the full anytime fare (where applicable). I'll double check tomorrow (or someone will correct me).

 

[SickyNicky]

Virgin's website will happily sell you a ticket from Euston to Wilmslow via Warrington and Manchester.

The route is clearly valid with the existing ticket, no extra should be paid and I would be asking Virgin to "retrain" the train manager who incorrectly deemed it invalid, as well as getting my money back plus some extra for the inconvenience/embarrassement etc.