Season ticket confiscated

[Anon136]

Hi All,

A friend of mine used my season ticket with their photocard and got caught. The ticket was confiscated by first capital connect and their details were taken down. I have since asked for the ticket back (as it has 6 months left on it) and they have said that I have to contact the prosecutions department. I have tried contacting them constantly but nobody has picked up.

Does anybody have any advice on where to go from here and what the likely result will be?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Urban Gateline]

Hi All,

A friend of mine used my season ticket with their photocard and got caught. The ticket was confiscated by first capital connect and their details were taken down. I have since asked for the ticket back (as it has 6 months left on it) and they have said that I have to contact the prosecutions department. I have tried contacting them constantly but nobody has picked up.

Does anybody have any advice on where to go from here and what the likely result will be?

Thanks in advance!

Keep trying to contact the prosecution department, in the meantime you'll have to pay for (a) new ticket/s to cover your commute and FCC will be unlikely to refund the cost of those back to you.

I'm sure you know now that it was a very foolish idea to let your friend use your season ticket, hopefully this will teach you not to do so again in the future. (maybe even choose your friends more carefully!)

 

[bb21]

FCC prosecutions department are not easy to get hold of so keep trying. Meanwhile be prepared to be questioned on how your season ticket was found in the possession of your "friend".

They have no obligation to hand it back as it was fraudulently used, so you need to be prepared for that eventuality.

 

[tony6499]

Hi All,

A friend of mine used my season ticket with their photocard and got caught. The ticket was confiscated by first capital connect and their details were taken down. I have since asked for the ticket back (as it has 6 months left on it) and they have said that I have to contact the prosecutions department. I have tried contacting them constantly but nobody has picked up.

Does anybody have any advice on where to go from here and what the likely result will be?

Thanks in advance!

Did your 'friend' use your ticket with or without your permission ?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Without knowing all the details, particularly the details of what was said when Witness Statements were being taken, I won't attempt to predict the outcome, but I will make two points:

The season ticket remans the property of the Railway Company, and it will not be released while it continues to be useful as evidence in an investigation; it may never be released if it is found to have been used fraudulently.

The purchaser of the ticket is likely to be investigated to determine their part in the abuse or fraud. We could recall the outcome in Browning v Floyd in which Mrs Doris Floyd was found guilty of aiding and abetting the fraud of her husband Arthur Floyd, having let her husband use her unused half of her return ticket. The husband was found guilty under the Regulation of Railways Act and the Railway Byelaws.

As an aside, it is interesting that Lord Goddard C J in delivering his judgement noted that Mr Floyd had quite unnecesarily incriminated himself during questionning, somethin we read on here so very often when a passenger takes umbrage at being questionned by an inspector and attempts to assert their rights.

I agree with bb21 that you should be prepared never to see that ticket again, and perhaps you should prepare yourself for further investigation into your own part in the offence.

 

[Anon136]

Did your 'friend' use your ticket with or without your permission ?

Yes, well he is my flatmate, picked it up while I wasn't in thinking as it was paid for it was ok for him to use, however I wasn't aware at the time that he had it, thanks

 

[maniacmartin]

Yes, well he is my flatmate, picked it up while I wasn't in thinking as it was paid for it was ok for him to use, however I wasn't aware at the time that he had it, thanks

What is likely to happen based on reports of similar incidents in the past is that the TOC will try to get you to 'drop your flatmate in it' by reporting it to the police, and if you don't do that they will infer that you were complicit in the offence.

 

[Anon136]

What is likely to happen based on reports of similar incidents in the past is that the TOC will try to get you to 'drop your flatmate in it' by reporting it to the police, and if you don't do that they will infer that you were complicit in the offence.

Ok so you are g suggesting I report it to the police and thus my flatmate gets a conviction?

 

[jon0844]

Yes, as I see it the outcomes are as follows;

1) You didn't know, so it was effectively stolen. You go to police and report it, and it's dealt with. You're now the victim and should get your ticket back. You may well be advised to make a claim from your losses from the person who took your season ticket (the TOC won't be liable for this as it had nothing to do with it).

2) You were asked if it was okay to use it and you said 'yeah, fine, just don't get caught!' or similar. In which case, it's down to you - and there's no reason for you to get the ticket back as you're in breach of the rules.

It sounds to me from what you've written that case 1 applies. It could well make things awkward for you (and him) but ultimately if you had absolutely no idea then he's caused you a lot of problems. Certainly your financial loss by having no season ticket is down to him.

 

[Gemz91]

Think its a no win situation, you either drop your mate in it and report it as theft to save your own bacon, or you admit involvement in the matter and possibly get prosecuted for fraud. Either way I'm sure you've learnt an expensive lesson from the matter.

 

[furlong]

the TOC will try to get you to 'drop your flatmate in it' by reporting it to the police

I'd be surprised if a prosecution office took that line when they could invite you to respond to their questions and take a statement directly if need be in line with what DaveNewcastle has already suggested.

 

[Anon136]

Thanks for your responses guys.

Just to give you an idea of where I stand on this and what I would like as the outcome if possible:

-I have not intention of report my flatmate as theft, we borrow each others stuff all the time so I don't see it as theft just stupidity on his part for thinking he was able to use it, therefore I will not be reporting it unless the TOC tell me I have to, is there anyway he will get the conviction for the ticket but not of theft, will FCC really be interested in prosecuting for theft as well?

-My flatmate will pay any costs so I'm not concerned about damages

-I would still obviously like to get my ticket back.

In regards to my flatmates situation, what is he looking at here? I understand the chances are he will get a conviction and a fine but is there any chance they will settle out of court?

Thanks

 

[Deerfold]

-I have not intention of report my flatmate as theft, we borrow each others stuff all the time so I don't see it as theft just stupidity on his part for thinking he was able to use it, therefore I will not be reporting it unless the TOC tell me I have to, is there anyway he will get the conviction for the ticket but not of theft, will FCC really be interested in prosecuting for theft as well?

Thanks

The problem with that is the longer you don't report it, the more it looks like you didn't have a problem with him having taken it.

FCC will be interested in whether they are looking at prosecuting you. I suspect they would leave it to the police to decide whether to prosecute for theft.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

There is likely to be a very good possibility of an out of Court settlement.

But I'm not persuaded that there is much prospect of the Police being contacted with a vew to prosecuting theft. The Company will be interested in protecting its revenue and its assets (its season tickets) and recovering its losses (including its administrative effort in investigating this offence).

Don't expect to see the season ticket again - it will be an unexpected bonus if you do.

 

[Clip]

.

In regards to my flatmates situation, what is he looking at here? I understand the chances are he will get a conviction and a fine but is there any chance they will settle out of court?

Thanks

Very hard to say until you have heard from them and are ready to reply.

Another problem you will have is they are going to wonder just how often your friend has borrowed your season ticket - once a week for 6 months or every other day or even every day or was it just once?


Hard to put a figure on that sort of thing but if it was me Id be putting it towards a 4 figure number.

 

[Deerfold]

There is likely to be a very good possibility of an out of Court settlement.

For the OP or their flatmate?

But I'm not persuaded that there is much prospect of the Police being contacted with a vew to prosecuting theft. The Company will be interested in protecting its revenue and its assets (its season tickets) and recovering its losses (including its administrative effort in investigating this offence).

I can't see FCC contacting them or caring about any subsequent potential prosecution, but I'm unsure how else the OP would establish that the season ticket was taken rather than being given.

 

[Anon136]

Thanks for all of your replies guys, very much appreciated, if you have anything left to add I will be checking this do any help is much appreciated.

A quick update: I have got hold of the prosecutions department, they have advised me to carry on buying tickets until the case is settled, they may reimburse me but said that it is unlikely. They also said that there is no point in reporting to the police as it was taken on our mutual private property.

I guess all I can do now is wait for the letter and take if from the there, I will post with any updates incase anyone goes through a similar situation in the future

 

[furlong]

but I'm unsure how else the OP would establish that the season ticket was taken rather than being given.

By making a statement to that effect if that is the truth? It would be for the company to prove otherwise if they felt there was sufficient such evidence, surely.

 

[Emyr]

I would avoid making statements regarding the flatmate's beliefs with regards the season ticket, it may come across as collusion or you interfering with the investigation.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . , but I'm unsure how else the OP would establish that the season ticket was taken rather than being given.

In the first instance, by making a Witness Statement. Then perhaps repeating it during an interview.
Should it go forward for prosecution, there will be another opportunity to assert it, with or without the flatmate's corroborating evidence.

But as I've tried to explain, the Company may not be very interested in that, as they have their revenue to protect and costs to recover.

 

[Gemz91]

-I would still obviously like to get my ticket back.



Thanks

Problem is, if you are unwilling to report the matter as a crime, you have to put your self in the shoes of the train company, and wonder why on earth would the reunite you with your ticket?

If your friend had used your season ticket, with your photo id, it could have been a simple mistake, that he picked up your pass and not his. But to physically remove the photo id and replace it with his own, then an intentional act to defraud the railway company has taken place.

If you look at your value of the season ticket, and then imagine walking out of Asda with that same value of food in a shopping trolley, that is what you are dealing with.

So in turn, until you get a police report, I'd say your chances of getting your season ticket back are very, very slim.

 

[bigdelboy]

I am no expert but I wonder about the value of initiating a standard lost/stolen ticket procedure as per the FAQs.

e.g. (( http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.uk/tickets-and-fares/season-tickets/season-ticket-faqs/ ))

This is the procedure that normally gets a duplicate season ticket in the event of loss/theft.

IMHO There would be no point hiding anything that has gone before, indeed you should make sure you reference and state all the facts. Attempting to sneak the claim through skimping the facts could make matters worse. However you can and should also mention the fact the prosecutions department told you there was no point reporting theft to police.

If I was in your shoes I'd have this written in a statement that you can hand in rather than trying to explain it while he writes it down ... in your shoes I would be in contrite and apologetic manner and in a 'yes sir' 'no sir' frame of mind.

IMHO The balance of probability is you colluded with your friend; and you risk having to lie or make up a story to show you did not collude. There however remains a possibility you did not collude.

......

Be aware the action above could make your situation worse rather than better, and IMHO you may be at risk of prosecution.

.......

Others on this forum know better than I and may suggest this is a poor option; and I would be happy to defer to that.

.......

If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything. (Mark Twain)

 

[CyrusWuff]

I am no expert but I wonder about the value of initiating a standard lost/stolen ticket procedure as per the FAQs.

e.g. (( http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.uk/tickets-and-fares/season-tickets/season-ticket-faqs/ ))

This is the procedure that normally gets a duplicate season ticket in the event of loss/theft.

I would strongly advise against this course of action, as such an application would almost certainly be passed to the Prosecutions Team given the reason for the ticket having been withdrawn in the first place, and they're likely to take a very dim view of an attempt to get a Duplicate whilst an investigation is ongoing.

 

[Greenback]

I would strongly advise against this course of action, as such an application would almost certainly be passed to the Prosecutions Team given the reason for the ticket having been withdrawn in the first place, and they're likely to take a very dim view of an attempt to get a Duplicate whilst an investigation is ongoing.

Agreed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Others on this forum know better than I and may suggest this is a poor option; and I would be happy to defer to that.

It's a very poor option. Also, I don't think there's much value in speculating on whether the OP colluded or not with their flatmate. This is not a court of law, it's just a place where people can come for advice.

 

[Nick W]

I would strongly advise against this course of action, as such an application would almost certainly be passed to the Prosecutions Team given the reason for the ticket having been withdrawn in the first place, and they're likely to take a very dim view of an attempt to get a Duplicate whilst an investigation is ongoing.

Surely, if the OP really is innocent, this would be breach of contract on the TOC's part? IT would of course be polite to send them letter advising them of the intention and keeping them updated with that action has been taken at the police station and any crime reference numbers.

 

[jon0844]

If the OP reports the ticket as stolen and gets the crime reference number, then the OP can probably begin to seek to get a replacement season ticket legitimately. The TOC can still continue to take its action against the flatmate caught with it.

The OP can also then begin to claim for the other losses (i.e. having to buy tickets while being without the season ticket) from the flatmate.

If the ticket was taken without permission, I am unclear why the OP isn't doing this. Does he hope the problem will just go away? If so, the result will be that he won't be seeing the ticket again and will just have to swallow the loss.

 

[Greenback]

Indeed. It would only be a sensible and legitimate course of action if the OP did not know the ticket had been taken and were to report this tot he police.

As the OP is not minded to do this, such a course of action would likely exacerbate matters.

 

[Nick W]

If the ticket was taken without permission, I am unclear why the OP isn't doing this. Does he hope the problem will just go away? If so, the result will be that he won't be seeing the ticket again and will just have to swallow the loss.

But this is not the case. The OP and his housemate have a mutual understanding that they may borrow each other's property without explicit permission. In this case, however, the property concerned was not the OP's, but the TOC's property. Therefore, the crime is not against the OP, but the TOC.

I don't see why the the OP can't make a statement to the police, forward a copy to assist the TOC with their investigations and then request a replacement. No doubt the OP's housemate will be happier with this, as the housemate may otherwise be liable for 6 months worth of tickets and not a few weeks?

 

[furlong]

If the OP reports the ticket as stolen

When I think about the answers to the following questions based on what has been said, I consider that there would be little point in suggesting that course of action.

Who is the legal owner of a season ticket?
What crime would be alleged?
What evidence would be needed to prove such an allegation and what defences would be available?
What have we already been told about what happened and to what extent would that be likely to help or hinder a prosecution?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't see why the the OP can't make a statement to the police

The TOC seems quite satisfied to talk directly.

A quick update: I have got hold of the prosecutions department,
...
They also said that there is no point in reporting to the police

 

[Anon136]

The reason I am reluctant to make a report it because I don't want to land my flatmate with another charge of theft if the TOC aren't prosecuting for that anyway, I fear that once I report it the police can take my flatmate to court for theft and it will be out of my hands, he would much rather just pay for my train fares, if there was a way to get the ticket with no charge of theft for my flatmate I would take that but it doesn't look possible