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Search and rescue service sold off

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yorksrob

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[Mod Note - Split from this thread.]

I note from this mornings news that even air sea rescue has been sold off, in spite of having been undertaken in exemplary fashion by the armed forces for the past seventy years. I must admit, I am having difficulty identifying this huge glut of state provision that according to some posters we are all so accustomed to.
 
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sonorguy

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I note from this mornings news that even air sea rescue has been sold off, in spite of having been undertaken in exemplary fashion by the armed forces for the past seventy years. I must admit, I am having difficulty identifying this huge glut of state provision that according to some posters we are all so accustomed to.

At the risk of diverting the thread, it's because the kit the RAF/Navy use is at least 40 years old and life expired. The new contractor, Bristow, already provide successfully all the Coastguard SAR for UK PLC and most of the SAR training, as well as being the biggest provider of offshore oil/gas installation rotary airframes. They will introduce a brand new fleet of 22 helicopters into a wider range of locations and provide significantly improve cover across the UK.

As well as this many of the helicopters will be built by Westlands in Yeovil, thus ensuring British jobs. Bristows are by a long margin the best provider for this service, however much we love the yellow and red/grey Sea Kings they're overdue for retirement and this is the best solution.

The RMT's objections are stupid, frankly.
 

yorksrob

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At the risk of diverting the thread, it's because the kit the RAF/Navy use is at least 40 years old and life expired. The new contractor, Bristow, already provide successfully all the Coastguard SAR for UK PLC and most of the SAR training, as well as being the biggest provider of offshore oil/gas installation rotary airframes. They will introduce a brand new fleet of 22 helicopters into a wider range of locations and provide significantly improve cover across the UK.

As well as this many of the helicopters will be built by Westlands in Yeovil, thus ensuring British jobs. Bristows are by a long margin the best provider for this service, however much we love the yellow and red/grey Sea Kings they're overdue for retirement and this is the best solution.

The RMT's objections are stupid, frankly.

So essentially it's a PFI to replace some life expired equipment that would need replacing anyway.
 

sonorguy

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Except there's no money in the defence pot to replace the Sea Kings and the Merlins are now too busy doing other things...... and it's a straight contract rather than a PFI arrangement. It was originally supposed to be a PFI but that was dumped in 2010, it's now a straight 10 yr contract.

The new contract genuinely will provide far better coverage with newer kit than either the RAF or Navy have. Most people in need of rescue want the best kit there is to rescue them and Bristow's will supply that.

Bristows been very successful in coastguard role, with no difference in the weathers they'll fly in (nearly all their pilots are ex Navy/RAF SAR anyway) and there's nothing to say they won't be in this role either.
 

455driver

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So you are saying it is cheaper for the government to pay Bristows to get the helicopters than buy them themselves!

Although I think I prefer somebody that knows what they are doing speccing them than a group of civil servants that dont have a clue!
Pity they wont do it with the railways isnt it <cough IEP cough>.
 

yorksrob

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So you are saying it is cheaper for the government to pay Bristows to get the helicopters than buy them themselves!

Although I think I prefer somebody that knows what they are doing speccing them than a group of civil servants that dont have a clue!
Pity they wont do it with the railways isnt it <cough IEP cough>.

I would expect that the professionals already running air sea rescue to have some idea of what kit they need.
 

NSEFAN

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yorksrob said:
I would expect that the professionals already running air sea rescue to have some idea of what kit they need.

But the government knows best. ;)
 

455driver

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I would expect that the professionals already running air sea rescue to have some idea of what kit they need.

As do the (proper) professionals running the railways but they are having IEP foisted on them, none of them want the thing but cannot say anything publicly as they dont want to bite the hand that feeds them.

Unfortunately NSEfan has the right answer.
 

ExRes

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Strange thread this one, we didn't do Search and Rescue when I was at EMT ......

With regards to Bristows, an American company, running SAR services, I hope that Ed Burkhardt doesn't have a place on their Board or those needing rescue are as good as dead
 

tbtc

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Strange thread this one, we didn't do Search and Rescue when I was at EMT ......

I'm sure someone will claim that we shouldn't pay a private company to do Search and Rescue as this could be profitably done by a Government body which would return all profits to the Treasury...

Reality is that Search and Rescue is always going to need subsidising. Just like many railway branchlines. Which is why I'm surprised to see people upset that EMT need a subsidy to do so.
 

corfield

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Reality is that the forces would have had to acquire civilian helicopters anyway because they are perfectly adequate for the job and new military ones (i.e. Merlin/Chinook/Wildcat) are either unsuitable or hugely expensive due to the military requirements in their design. At which point many of the training/logistic synergies that made it effective for the forces to do it vanish.

In effect, all that has happened is that we are farming out a job to civilians hat the military created and did, just as we did by forming the Police in many ways...

I've always thought the SAR jobs were a way of training helicopter crews with constant and real challenging flying/tasks that they might not otherwise get, and which paid off when they rotated to more "military" squadrons. There is certainly next to no specific military tasking for these SAR units these days (and not any that cannot be done by other helicopter squadrons). However, I understand SAR has become something of a specialism within the RAF/FAA and the recent, current and likely operational tempo seems more than adequate to expose people to doing their core job in a way that the Cold War didn't.

Anyway, Bristows have been doing SAR for decades with S-61Ns in a few UK locations and very successfully too - not to mention the more recent (mid 90s onwards?) contracted out MCA helicotpers at Lee-on-Solent so this is actually just an expansion of the civilian side of SAR.

I'm just glad the PFI bit got canned and it is a straight contract.
 

PHILIPE

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I'm sure someone will claim that we shouldn't pay a private company to do Search and Rescue as this could be profitably done by a Government body which would return all profits to the Treasury...

Reality is that Search and Rescue is always going to need subsidising. Just like many railway branchlines. Which is why I'm surprised to see people upset that EMT need a subsidy to do so.
I cant understand where the money is coming from for Bairstows when they operate the service. Are they going to charge the people they rescue or is the Government going to pay ?
 

alanf

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i hope the yanks dont operate this like their ambulances, My mates wife was taken ill over there a few years ago and the first thing they wanted was credit card details. Imagine that in 40 foot waves

Alan
 

Bungle73

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I'm sure someone will claim that we shouldn't pay a private company to do Search and Rescue as this could be profitably done by a Government body which would return all profits to the Treasury...

Reality is that Search and Rescue is always going to need subsidising. Just like many railway branchlines. Which is why I'm surprised to see people upset that EMT need a subsidy to do so.
Profits? What profits? S&R don't make a profit. How can they?
Are they going to charge the people they rescue
No. As I understand it it will operate the exact same way it does now.
 

sonorguy

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So where is the money coming from to pay Bristows to provide the service?

It's more important where it isn't coming from, which is the now much smaller Navy and RAF equipment budgets which have now been spent on, respectively, two very large aircraft carriers and Typhoon, new Chinooks, C17s and the new air tankers.

It's not a job that needs the military to carry it out, Bristows are more than capable and the kit they'll be using is more advanced than any helicopters UK PLC currently possesses or is likely to over the next few years, to the point that US DoD clearance has had to be sought to allow some of it to be used.

SAR is less of a military requirement nowadays than it was in the days of less advanced weaponry. Any environment that sees airframes shot down to the level of requiring this service would be far too hostile for SAR helicopters to fly in anyhow.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
i hope the yanks dont operate this like their ambulances, My mates wife was taken ill over there a few years ago and the first thing they wanted was credit card details. Imagine that in 40 foot waves

Alan

Doesn't happen now with the Coastguard, for whom Bristows have provided this service incredibly successfully for many years, and won't happen for this either and coastguard service will be rolled into it when the new airframes appear.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I hope the yanks don't operate this like their ambulances, My mates wife was taken ill over there a few years ago and the first thing they wanted was credit card details. Imagine that in 40 foot waves

Alan

I think that you can rest assured that the terms of this 10 year contract to cover the areas of Britain would not have this type of American-ism attached to it. Have you any knowledge to suggest that this may be so in regard to this specific contract and have there been any suggestions in anything currently in the public domain to suggest that what you allude to has any basis in fact.

We are discussing a service proposed to be operational in Britain, not in America, on this thread.
 

Monty

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I have to agree with sonarguy on this one, the unpleasant fact is that the budget for the military is shrinking (something I don't personally agree with but that's for another thread) and there is a lot of old kit that is in urgent need of replacement. The armed for forces now have capability gaps where equipment has been retired early in order to save money (the best examples of this are the carriers and the harrier GR9 & FA2) and i'd rather see SAR operations contracted out than lose another combat unit.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I'm sure someone will claim that we shouldn't pay a private company to do Search and Rescue as this could be profitably done by a Government body which would return all profits to the Treasury


It is noticeable that there are never the demands that the RNLI and its lifeboat fleet should be "placed under public ownership" instead of being allowed to operate in the way they do.

Do I sense "double standards" coming into play when comparisons between organisations saving lives at sea are being discussed.
 

corfield

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Err, the Govt paying for a service every year is a hell of a lot cheaper than paying for the total re-equipment of said service in one year, i.e. this year.

Which is the scenario the Govt has been faced with for the last 5 years of this saga.

Bristows are either funding the acquisition of the helicopters through their own capital assets, or via debt (or some combination). In the first case, the Govt doesn't have the capital, in the 2nd, it can't borrow more. Bristows will recoup their costs through the contract charges annually.

As with so much procurement, the Govt is moving to a basis of paying say £20 per year for ever, rather than spending £100 every 10 years and £5 in intervening years.
It is almost certainly more expensive over say a 50 year period, but from a cynical perspective it is cheaper over the next 3-4 of that administrations expected lifetime.

Less cynically, it is what nearly all major companies do which is lease their site/equipment because it makes planning of finances vastly simpler and less cyclical, albeit at a cost. Although even that is mitigated by the future value of the cost, what you can do with the capital cost now and above all, by how the risk the entire thing represents is thus reduced (well, should be !).

I kind of prefer the Govts approach because it is more honest in a way - it avoids the scope for politicians to delay/cancel capital projects that are up for renewal in order to use it for short term electoral bribes in their personal favourite areas - because they can't raid the capital fund because it doesn't exist and everything is being paid out of revenue - and because you can also more easily understand the true lifetime costs of projects/services that a more cyclical nature hides.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In the 60s and/or 70s I believe there were such demands, and the RN wasn't in the financial strength that it now is - certainly I recall being told by a RNLI official that they had had to fight the proposals at the time and it had come quite close.

Certainly today they appear the world's premier maritime SAR service, and indeed, with so many "Air Ambulances" funded (at least partially) by charities, one does wonder if the Helicopter SAR side could be similarly operated rather than being a Govt funded service ?

An interesting charity the RNLI, and one of the few I support as I think they actually use most of the donated money for productive stuff that you can see, and haven't gone down the "pay huge salaries and spend lots on PR and lobbying" route of so many others. I just wish I was able to live close enough to a station to volunteer as a lifeboatmen !
 

Bungle73

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It is noticeable that there are never the demands that the RNLI and its lifeboat fleet should be "placed under public ownership" instead of being allowed to operate in the way they do.

Do I sense "double standards" coming into play when comparisons between organisations saving lives at sea are being discussed.

It's not double standards. The RNLI are a charitable organisation and receive no government funding.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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It's not double standards. The RNLI are a charitable organisation and receive no government funding.

Of course I understand that point, but it does annoy me when those espousing "the state should control everything" conveniently forget such matters of the RNLI....<(

It was that very matter of "double standards" to which I so alluded.
 

alanf

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I think that you can rest assured that the terms of this 10 year contract to cover the areas of Britain would not have this type of American-ism attached to it. Have you any knowledge to suggest that this may be so in regard to this specific contract and have there been any suggestions in anything currently in the public domain to suggest that what you allude to has any basis in fact.

We are discussing a service proposed to be operational in Britain, not in America, on this thread.

I have no knowledge whatsoever i merely said what i said and i also don't think i alluded anything

Alan
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And to reply to your last sentence it may be a service for Britain but in my opinion if im allowed one The Americans like to do everything their way

Alan
 

ainsworth74

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And to reply to your last sentence it may be a service for Britain but in my opinion if im allowed one The Americans like to do everything their way

So you honestly believe the government would enter into a contract whereby the citizens that are being rescued by this service would be charged before being rescued and the media/public/opposition wouldn't have ripped them to shreds? The company will be contractually obligated to provide the service free of charge to those receiving the service with their money coming from contractual payments by the government. If they start to charge then they'd be in breech of contract and most likely liable to lose their contract entirely.
 

455driver

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So you honestly believe the government would enter into a contract whereby the citizens that are being rescued by this service would be charged before being rescued
To be quite honest I wouldnt mind if certain people (who had got into trouble because of their own stupidity) were charged for it (given a bill to be paid later obviously ;)), just like the p1ssheads on a Friday and Saturday night needing their stomach pumped/face fixed should be charged by the NHS!

the trouble would start trying to work out where being unlucky finishes and stupidity starts.
 

yorksrob

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Of course I understand that point, but it does annoy me when those espousing "the state should control everything" conveniently forget such matters of the RNLI....<(

It was that very matter of "double standards" to which I so alluded.

Hmm. I wonder how many people in the country really do feel that the state should control "everything" given that we seem to have moved so far from a traditional mixed economy to a sell off free for all.

With regard to air/sea rescue it does seem symptomic of National decline that we can't arrange for an orderly replacement of kit which we knew needed replacement anyway (regardless of the short term savings of the new arrangement).
 

ainsworth74

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With regard to air/sea rescue it does seem symptomic of National decline that we can't arrange for an orderly replacement of kit which we knew needed replacement anyway (regardless of the short term savings of the new arrangement).

I'm not sure it's due to National decline at least not entirely. Personally I'd suggest it's got to do with defence spending (where a replacement would be funded from) not being a priority of this and every government since the War. The biggest priorities are Social Protection (£220bn), Health (£137bn) and Education (£97bn) whilst defence clocks in at £40bn. Therefore, if you're the Chief of the Defence Staff, looking at how much money you have do you spend it on replacing an aircraft that's old but works or on an equipment upgrade for the Royal Navy's Type 23 Frigates, or on integrating Brimstone onto the Tornado, or upgrading the L85 rifle to the A2 standard?

If defence had been a bigger priority for government then it might have been possible to afford to replace the Sea Kings which currently perform SAR. However, the job of the military is to defend the nation and deliver foreign policy objectives so SAR takes a back seat when it comes to getting a slice of an always dwindling budget.

Figures from page six of the 2013 Budget found here.
 

yorksrob

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I'm not sure it's due to National decline at least not entirely. Personally I'd suggest it's got to do with defence spending (where a replacement would be funded from) not being a priority of this and every government since the War. The biggest priorities are Social Protection (£220bn), Health (£137bn) and Education (£97bn) whilst defence clocks in at £40bn. Therefore, if you're the Chief of the Defence Staff, looking at how much money you have do you spend it on replacing an aircraft that's old but works or on an equipment upgrade for the Royal Navy's Type 23 Frigates, or on integrating Brimstone onto the Tornado, or upgrading the L85 rifle to the A2 standard?

If defence had been a bigger priority for government then it might have been possible to afford to replace the Sea Kings which currently perform SAR. However, the job of the military is to defend the nation and deliver foreign policy objectives so SAR takes a back seat when it comes to getting a slice of an always dwindling budget.

Figures from page six of the 2013 Budget found here.
What you say is obviousy true. But even though they are part of the armed services, it shouldn't be beyond the wit of government to dedicate a budget to them. We' ll always end up paying more for such arrangements in the long term.
 

alanf

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So you honestly believe the government would enter into a contract whereby the citizens that are being rescued by this service would be charged before being rescued and the media/public/opposition wouldn't have ripped them to shreds? The company will be contractually obligated to provide the service free of charge to those receiving the service with their money coming from contractual payments by the government. If they start to charge then they'd be in breech of contract and most likely liable to lose their contract entirely.

No i don't believe it at all it was tongue in cheek Some people take life far to seriously You only live once make the most of it

Alan
 
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