Seaford to High Wycombe

[globetrotter]

I would like to seek some expert advice on a planned trip from Seaford (SEF) to High Wycombe (HWY). I'm sorry it's so complicated but it did not start out that way. My attempt below was to try to ascertain the rules step by step and then follow them, but in the end perhaps this has led nowhere.

I wanted to purchase a one month open return SVR SEF-HWY ticket at £34.40 with Senior Railcard reduction, route “Any Permitted” but not travel via London. That’s where my problems began. Avantix gives me: SVR - OFF-PEAK R NCH 00000 - +ANY PERMITTED [with restriction 4B]

I had no idea what NCH meant and an internet search made me no wiser. Very late in this process it dawned on me that it might be a fare set by Chiltern Trains. In what follows, I’d only be travelling from Bicester North to High Wycombe on Chiltern Trains.

Looking at the maps, permitted routings from SEF (Lewes Group) to HWY are:

LB+CS or CS+RM+CW or London

I've been struggling to understand how the fare check rules work. If I am understanding them correctly, I must first find the associated routing points for HWY as it is not a routing point itself.

These are Banbury, Oxford, Greenford and London. Let’s concentrate on the first two as I don’t want to travel via London.

The SVR fare to Banbury “Any Permitted” is £38.35 so it fails the fare check as Banbury is an associated routing point for HWY. However there appears to be an easement and in order to get to HWY I do have to pass through Bicester North when coming from Oxford:

700028 Customers travelling from Bicester North to Oxford and beyond, may travel via Banbury. This easement applies in both directions.

The routing I plan to take includes (more on this later) is Oxford – Banbury – High Wycombe, using maps LB+CS. Failing that, Oxford – Bicester Town – walk – Bicester North – High Wycombe.

So I’m thinking that easement 700028 allows me to ignore the Banbury fare check. Is that correct and therefore I can travel via Banbury?

If not, bearing in mind that OXF is also an associated routing point for HWY can I travel Oxford – Bicester Town – walk – Bicester North – High Wycombe on the £34.40 Any Permitted SVR fare SEF-HWY? There is an "Any Permitted" SVR of £35 SEF-OXF or SEF-BIT but the “Not London” SVR is £30.35. If I compare with SEF-HWY there is no “Not London” SEF-HWY SVR and as I’m not travelling via London why would I need to compare the £34.40 with the higher £35 SEF-OXF or SEF-BIT “Any Permitted” SVR fare?

But if the answer is that I cannot travel on the £34.40 SVR via Bicester either, then can I instead travel on a GWR “Not London” SVR fare of £30.35 SEF-BIT ? And from BIT I walk to Bicester North (BCS) and buy an unrestricted SDS ticket at £3.85 each way to HWY. That makes a total cost of £38.05 SEF-HWY return and allows early morning onward travel from BCY to HWY.

In comparing only the SVR fares I rely on Section F of the National Routing Guide which as pointed out in a 2009 thread on this forum states (and still states in 2011):

“Originally Posted by National Routeing Guide, 2 July 2009 and later editions, page F4: All fares comparisons must be made using the same ticket type. No other intermediate fares are compared. Even if another intermediate fare (A–F) is higher than the fare for the whole journey, it does not forbid the route. If we don't use the same ticket type where possible, the process doesn't return unambiguous results.

All fares comparisons must be made using the same ticket type. The ticket type is SVR”. [John@Home]

The SVR fare SEF-BCS is £37.90, but BCS is an intermediate point, not a routing point.

“Not London” is actually helpful as then no one can say I am off route. It seems there is no requirement, according to this part of the NRG, to compare other fares like SDS.

Can I walk from Bicester Town to Bicester North? Is that allowed? Here's ATOC's reply (from 1998 or so, addressed to Clive Feather):

Qu.9: Can a journey involve a walk between stations?

Some journeys must involve a walk between stations; for example, the fare from Watford Junction to Harpenden is routed "St Albans Abbey" - this must involve a walk between St Albans Abbey and St Albans. As regards permitted routes in the Routeing Guide, there is nothing to prevent a customer using a route that involves a walk between stations (one is not breaking the "no doubling back" rule by doing this).

There are various easements forbidding travel from Oxford via Bicester Town to Bicester North but on my "Any Permitted Route" ticket I do not believe that they apply as Bicester North is not my destination. And I am of course taking "the shortest route" by walking.

Outward journey: My planned routing on the outward leg is Lewes – Gatwick –Redhill – Guildford (lunch stop) – Reading – Oxford. I wanted to stop in Oxford for the night or (depending on the experts’ views) in either Banbury or Bicester. The next morning, between the earliest permitted train and 12.00 I shall resume my journey to High Wycombe from one of those places on the SEF-HWY ticket (Conditions 4B) or if not then at any time on a separate BCS-HWY ticket if that is the only way it can be done.

Return journey: Wishing to enjoy some different countryside and towns on the way back, I propose to use a different routing. This would be (after Oxford) Reading – Basingstoke – Eastleigh – Southampton (or if necessary Portsmouth) – Brighton – Lewes – Seaford using maps CS+RM+CW.

I’d welcome all comments and observations. When I try to book the SEF-HWY on Southern’s website using either “via Banbury” or “via Oxford”, I am informed that no fares have been found. When I try to book the SEF-BIT £30.35 GWR SVR the first train I am offered is at 14.00 and the routing is Clapham Junction – Basingstoke – Oxford. If select the SEF-BIT £35 GWR SVR I am offered a 10.00 departure and a routing via Farringdon-Paddington-Oxford.

As you can imagine after putting a lot of work into all this I am by now totally confused. Can it be that “Any Permitted” does not mean that, but instead means any route and trains permitted (and decided) by the operator who set the fare rather than what’s shown on the maps? And, if so, why is there no unrestricted any operator “Any Permitted” fare?

If it’s not possible to travel via the mapped routes (for all fares SEF-HWY are apparently set by NCH, whoever they are) what is the purpose of showing the maps? If it is possible, why do the booking engines not have any fares for example "via Oxford"?

Also how should one approach the research and planning of journeys like this to avoid wasting huge amounts of time? Part of my purpose in researching this journey and the possible routings was to gain a better understanding of how it all works, knowledge that I might apply to future journeys.

Despite all the maps, is the only "permitted" way to travel is via London or Clapham Junction and not via Oxford for example? Or although the fare is set by NCH in fact I can ascertain and interpret the rules as I've tried to above and carry out the journey in one of the ways I've proposed? It's all completely confusing.

Is there something basic that I failed to note or understand in approaching and doing all this? On this flow, can I realistically only travel via London regardless what ticket type I purchase, i.e. the only way to travel via Oxford (for example) is on split tickets and at much higher cost? Once again, sorry for such a long posting and for raising so many questions.

 

[island]

I'm too tired to work out all the answers, but I will say the following: NCH does indeed mean the fare is set by Chiltern, ANY PERMITTED means permitted by the routeing guide, the online journey planners have limitations and will not always be 100% correct, and you can't do a fares check using SVR (has to be done with CDS, SVS, SOS, or SDS).

 

[Cherry_Picker]

By the time you figure all that out there will be direct trains between Oxford and High Wycombe anyway!

 

[John @ home]

you can't do a fares check using SVR (has to be done with CDS, SVS, SOS, or SDS)

island is right. The fares check must be done in accordance with the National Routeing Guide.

All fares comparisons must be made using one of the following single ticket types:
• Standard Open Single (SOS)
• Standard Day Single (SDS)
• Saver Single (SVS)
• Cheap Day Single (CDS)

Performing the fares check for a Seaford - High Wycombe journey, we have no SVS or SOS fares:
Seaford - High Wycombe CDS 31.60, SDS 33.50
Seaford - Banbury CDS 41.60, SDS 55.50, so Banbury is not an appropriate Routeing Point (RP) for this journey.
Seaford - Greenford no CDS fare, SDS 24.10, so Greenford is an appropriate RP for this journey.
Seaford - London no CDS fare, SDS 23.30, so London is an appropriate RP for this journey.
Seaford - Oxford route Not London CDS 39.20, SDS 40.90
Seaford - Oxford route + Any Permitted CDS 42.20, SDS 52.90, so Oxford is not an appropriate Routeing Point (RP) for this journey.

Sorry.

 

[globetrotter]

Thanks for all the replies so far.

 

[bb21]

Looking at the maps, permitted routings from SEF (Lewes Group) to HWY are:

LB+CS or CS+RM+CW or London

You do not look at maps until after the fares check has been performed and the appropriate routeing points determined.

So I’m thinking that easement 700028 allows me to ignore the Banbury fare check. Is that correct and therefore I can travel via Banbury?

No. You cannot use easements to bypass the fares check step as easements come into the process much later. If fares check says that a routeing point is not appropriate then it is not appropriate.

There is an "Any Permitted" SVR of £35 SEF-OXF or SEF-BIT but the “Not London” SVR is £30.35. If I compare with SEF-HWY there is no “Not London” SEF-HWY SVR and as I’m not travelling via London why would I need to compare the £34.40 with the higher £35 SEF-OXF or SEF-BIT “Any Permitted” SVR fare?

Because fares comparison has to be done on a like-for-like basis, if possible. You cannot compare the Not London fare with an Any Permitted fare if an Any Permitted fare exists for the journey.

But if the answer is that I cannot travel on the £34.40 SVR via Bicester either, then can I instead travel on a GWR “Not London” SVR fare of £30.35 SEF-BIT ? And from BIT I walk to Bicester North (BCS) and buy an unrestricted SDS ticket at £3.85 each way to HWY. That makes a total cost of £38.05 SEF-HWY return and allows early morning onward travel from BCY to HWY.

Subject to permitted routes, you're perfectly OK to do this. It is just split-ticketing.

There are various easements forbidding travel from Oxford via Bicester Town to Bicester North but on my "Any Permitted Route" ticket I do not believe that they apply as Bicester North is not my destination. And I am of course taking "the shortest route" by walking.

These negative easements disallow travelling via Bicester Town if the origin or destination on your ticket is Bicester North. If neither the origin nor destination on your ticket is either of the Bicester stations then of course you can travel by foot between the two Bicester stations as part of your journey, if it is part of a permitted route.

(for all fares SEF-HWY are apparently set by NCH, whoever they are)

A company may set the Any Permitted fares for a particular flow for many reasons. Chiltern might set this particular flow historically, and this might not have been challenged by any other operator over time. They might have indeed operated the majority of services into London from days gone by, or they might still assume that most passengers travel into London Marylebone as they it being the most convenient option.

Now you can check permitted map combinations.

Performing the fares check for a Seaford - High Wycombe journey, we have no SVS or SOS fares:
Seaford - High Wycombe CDS 31.60, SDS 33.50
Seaford - Banbury CDS 41.60, SDS 55.50, so Banbury is not an appropriate Routeing Point (RP) for this journey.
Seaford - Greenford no CDS fare, SDS 24.10, so Greenford is an appropriate RP for this journey.
Seaford - London no CDS fare, SDS 23.30, so London is an appropriate RP for this journey.
Seaford - Oxford route Not London CDS 39.20, SDS 40.90
Seaford - Oxford route + Any Permitted CDS 42.20, SDS 52.90, so Oxford is not an appropriate Routeing Point (RP) for this journey.

Lewes is the only associated routeing point for Seaford so we'll have to use that.

On a Seaford - High Wycombe Any Permitted ticket, you now have the options of:

Lewes - London --- which you wished to avoid, and
Lewes - Greenford --- which gives LONDON as the only route.

I'm afraid on this occasion you're out of luck, if you wish to use a Seaford - High Wycombe ticket. This might well explain why the fare is still set by Chiltern.

 

[globetrotter]

Thanks BB21 for a most informative reply that addressed my very many points. I have now found a way to make this journey in one of the ways that I had hoped.

SEF-BIT GWR SVR at £30.35 (senior railcard discount). Separate tickets: BCS (Bicester North) to HWY SDS each way at £3.85.

Outward travel via Gatwick, Redhill, Guildford, Reading and Oxford. Lunch in Guildford then spend the night in Oxford and continue to Bicester Town the next morning on either the 10 AM or next departure, but in any case before midday. Walk from Bicester Town to Bicester North (excellent connections in both directions).

Return travel HWY to Bicester North then via Oxford, Reading, Basingstoke, Southampton and Brighton (all travel on the same day, return within one month)

Can anyone see any objections to these routings? I seem to meet all the conditions of Restriction 5K on the GWR SVR fare. What should I say at Oxford if ignorant staff refused to allow me to pass the barrier to get on my train to Bicester Town on the morning of the second day?



I was using the itinerary SEF-HWY not only to see if I could make this journey but also to try to understand better all the rules that one needs to apply to other future journeys. I do not live in the UK and am here only occasionally, so it is a very steep learning curve. Thanks to your detailed reply I now understand all this much better and, believe me, I did do a ton of research before posting.

If I understand all the replies correctly, Island and John@Home are both saying that I must check other fares than the SVR fares, on which I proposed to travel, so see if my proposed routing is valid. I’m not sure if I agree with this. I know that it’s what the NRG says in one place, but on the other hand Section F Page 4 of the NRG still (for I have downloaded the latest version NRG_detail) clearly states:

All fares comparisons must be made using
the same ticket type. No other intermediate
fares are compared. Even if another
intermediate fare (A–F) is higher than the
fare for the whole journey, it does not forbid
the route.

The same ticket type. That’s SVR, isn’t it? So no need to compare SDS, CDS fares etc? Yet I see many postings on this forum in which SDS fares are used for fare checks. But surely I can rely on Section F of the NRG as my contractual basis, and apply the fare-check rules on Page F4?

The intermediate fare check: The SEF-BAN SVR fare is higher than SEF-HWY and if I cannot rely on an easement, that eliminates Banbury as a possible routing. Similarly a routing to HWY via OXF and/or BIT is not allowed on the SEF-HWY SVR because again the “any permitted route” SVR fare to OXF or BIT is higher. So regardless of what the correct interpretation of the NRG is, routings via BAN OXF or Bicester stations may fail the fare check. However the easement to which I refer in my OP, 700028, is surely a routing easement? In that case I could travel via Banbury had the fare check for OXF been met (which it was not). But I’m still wondering, can I use the SEF-BIT GWR SVR to travel via Banbury, relying on the easement as there is no comparable "not London" SVR fare to SEF-BCY?

 

[island]

"All the fares comparisons must be made using the same ticket type" and "fares comparisons must be made only using SDS, SOS, SVS, and CDS" are not mutually exclusive statements

 

[bb21]

Thanks BB21 for a most informative reply that addressed my very many points. I have now found a way to make this journey in one of the ways that I had hoped.

You're welcome.

SEF-BIT GWR SVR at £30.35 (senior railcard discount). Separate tickets: BCS (Bicester North) to HWY SDS each way at £3.85.

Outward travel via Gatwick, Redhill, Guildford, Reading and Oxford. Lunch in Guildford then spend the night in Oxford and continue to Bicester Town the next morning on either the 10 AM or next departure, but in any case before midday. Walk from Bicester Town to Bicester North (excellent connections in both directions).

Return travel HWY to Bicester North then via Oxford, Reading, Basingstoke, Southampton and Brighton (all travel on the same day, return within one month)

Can anyone see any objections to these routings? I seem to meet all the conditions of Restriction 5K on the GWR SVR fare. What should I say at Oxford if ignorant staff refused to allow me to pass the barrier to get on my train to Bicester Town on the morning of the second day?

I think it's fine.

Bicester Town has the same four associated routeing points as High Wycombe, of which we have already discounted London and Greenford as you wish to avoid London. The only other associated routeing points left are Oxford and Banbury.

(I'm using RC-discounted fares. Whether the fares are discounted does not change the outcome of the fares check.)

Seaford Sussex - Bicester Town
+Any Permitted
SDS £34.90
CDS £27.85
Not London
SDS £27.00
CDS £25.90

Seaford Sussex - Oxford
(Fares are the same as to Bicester Town.)

Seaford Sussex - Banbury
+Any Permitted
SDS £36.65
CDS £27.45

Interestingly here the Any Permitted CDS fare (one of the four types that can be used) indicates that Banbury is an appropriate routeing point for Bicester Town. There is no documentation as to what to do if some types of fares fail the check whilst others pass. As it was not specified which one type takes precedence over the others, out of the four, there are divided opinions on this issue. Some people believe that the routeing point is only appropriate if one is travelling on a ticket of that type, or its derivatives, in this example the CDR fare, and not appropriate if travelling on other fare types, such as the SDR, while others believe that when the meaning is unclear, current legislation interprets the terms in favour of the consumer, in this case the passenger, so that one can use the most favourable comparison result, in this case the CDS comparison. I am in the latter's camp.

So you have Lewes - Oxford and Lewes - Banbury to look up for the maps, giving you LB + CS or CW + RM + CS.

Unfortunately in this case the Banbury option doesn't give you any additional route as to get there you have to travel via Oxford first, and will have to doubleback between Oxford and Banbury on your way to Bicester Town because it is the shortest route from Banbury to Bicester Town. Some people argue that it is shorter to do Banbury - Bicester North and then walk to Bicester Town as walking distance counts zero, hence making travel via Banbury valid. However John @ Home put across a convincing argument in this post to say otherwise, that walking is not believed to be permitted at either the beginning or the end of the itinerary, only in the middle.

If you really want to travel via Banbury then there is an alternative. Instead of buying to Bicester Town, buy a return to Islip. It costs exactly the same amount of money as a ticket to Bicester Town, however it will now allow you to travel via Oxford, then up to Banbury, down to Bicester North, walk to Bicester Town and then to Islip as the shortest route between Banbury and Islip is via the two Bicester stations with a walk in between. According to NRT, this journey is 20 miles, whereas the route via Oxford is 28.5 miles. There are no negative easements applying to Islip and no BOJ condition on this ticket. This means you can break your journey at Bicester North and use your additional single ticket from there to High Wycombe. On your return leg, you can go all the way back to Bicester North, then use the return portion of the Islip ticket to go to Banbury, then Oxford and so on. Note that you will not be allowed to do Bicester North - Bicester Town - Islip - Oxford on your return journey as your ticket is only valid from Islip if you wish to go that way instead of around the house, unless you purchase a High Wycombe - Islip single instead of a High Wycombe - Bicester North single.

I was using the itinerary SEF-HWY not only to see if I could make this journey but also to try to understand better all the rules that one needs to apply to other future journeys. I do not live in the UK and am here only occasionally, so it is a very steep learning curve. Thanks to your detailed reply I now understand all this much better and, believe me, I did do a ton of research before posting.

... and it is evident through your detailed posts. The whole thing is extremely complicated. There are some real experts on here, such as John @ Home. Many others like myself still have certain areas we're not even sure ourselves.

If I understand all the replies correctly, Island and John@Home are both saying that I must check other fares than the SVR fares, on which I proposed to travel, so see if my proposed routing is valid. I’m not sure if I agree with this. I know that it’s what the NRG says in one place, but on the other hand Section F Page 4 of the NRG still (for I have downloaded the latest version NRG_detail) clearly states:

All fares comparisons must be made using
the same ticket type. No other intermediate
fares are compared. Even if another
intermediate fare (A–F) is higher than the
fare for the whole journey, it does not forbid
the route.

The same ticket type. That’s SVR, isn’t it? So no need to compare SDS, CDS fares etc?

Yes then no. You can only compare four fare types, and they are all single fares, as detailed in this document at the end of Step 4.

We never compare return fares, as there is at least one single fare defined for every single flow.

However the easement to which I refer in my OP, 700028, is surely a routing easement? In that case I could travel via Banbury had the fare check for OXF been met (which it was not).

But you're not on a Bicester North ticket. You would have been on a High Wycombe ticket.

But I’m still wondering, can I use the SEF-BIT GWR SVR to travel via Banbury, relying on the easement as there is no comparable "not London" SVR fare to SEF-BCY?

If Oxford passes the fares check for Bicester North then you're correct. However it doesn't as far as I can see.

"All the fares comparisons must be made using the same ticket type" and "fares comparisons must be made only using SDS, SOS, SVS, and CDS" are not mutually exclusive statements

I concur with that statement.