Scratch sets

[AY1975]

Apologies if there's already a thread on this, and not sure if it belongs under history & nostalgia or traction & rolling stock, but as I mention in post 134 on page 5 of the thread on unbelievable rolling stock diagram allocations at www.railforums.co.uk/threads/your-experiences-of-unbelievable-rolling-stock-diagram-allocations-past-and-present.203340/page-5 trains formed of "scratch sets" or "scratch rakes" (i.e. sets of coaches that looked as if they had just been coupled together at random) were quite common in the days before fixed formation sets became the norm (so probably until about the mid to late 1980s, but you still sometimes used to see such formations in the early 1990s and to a much lesser extent even more recently than that).

Examples of scratch sets included:

West Coast Main Line trains formed of a mixture of Mark 2s and Mark 3s (which I guess could have caused chaos with the seat reservation system unless a certain number of seats were always left unreserved to allow for this). This seemed to be especially common with Euston to Liverpool, Manchester and Glasgow trains. I think the Birminghams, Wolverhamptons and Shrewsburys were pretty much always Mark 2s, though.

Trains formed of a mixture of Mark 1s and Mark 2s.

Trains formed of a mixture of non-air-conditioned and air-conditioned Mark 2s.

Trains with more brake end vehicles (BSOs, BSKs, BFKs or BCKs) than were needed.

Trains with more First Class than was needed (in which case some of the First Class coaches would often have window labels saying "For the use of passengers travelling Second Class").

You even occasionally used to see trains with coaches at least two eras apart in the same set. For example Mark 1s and air-conditioned Mark 2s (I mean ordinary Mark 1 passenger coaches as opposed to Mark 1 buffet cars in trains of Mark 2 aircons) or Mark 3s and non-aircon Mark 2s.

First generation DMUs were also often formed of vehicles from two or more different classes of unit and could perhaps also be described as scratch sets (see also the thread on 1st gen DMUs at www.railforums.co.uk/threads/1st-gen-dmu’s.203611/).

 

[Bletchleyite]

West Coast Main Line trains formed of a mixture of Mark 2s and Mark 3s (which I guess could have caused chaos with the seat reservation system unless a certain number of seats were always left unreserved to allow for this). This seemed to be especially common with Euston to Liverpool, Manchester and Glasgow trains. I think the Birminghams, Wolverhamptons and Shrewsburys were pretty much always Mark 2s, though.

Far, far fewer people reserved back then, as (a) there were no Advances, so no incentive to book in advance (and when things like Apex came in, the availability was terrible and had to exist in both directions for a fare to apply), and (b) you had to faff about going to a station to do it, and many smaller stations couldn't. Even Merseyrail stations had to make a telephone call to one of the larger ones (Aughton Park had to call Ormskirk, for instance) to get a reservation keyed in.

 

[AY1975]

Far, far fewer people reserved back then, as (a) there were no Advances, so no incentive to book in advance (and when things like Apex came in, the availability was terrible and had to exist in both directions for a fare to apply), and (b) you had to faff about going to a station to do it, and many smaller stations couldn't. Even Merseyrail stations had to make a telephone call to one of the larger ones (Aughton Park had to call Ormskirk, for instance) to get a reservation keyed in.

Yes, and (c) there weren't so many people travelling as there are today (or at least as there were before Covid19) so except at busy times such as during the main holiday season you could usually be fairly sure of getting a seat without a reservation so if a Mark 2 was used in place of a Mark 3, a First Class coach vice Standard, or a brake end coach instead of a coach with a full length saloon, it wouldn't have been so much of an issue with the reservations as it would be today.

 

[hexagon789]

Apologies if there's already a thread on this, and not sure if it belongs under history & nostalgia or traction & rolling stock, but as I mention in post 134 on page 5 of the thread on unbelievable rolling stock diagram allocations at www.railforums.co.uk/threads/your-experiences-of-unbelievable-rolling-stock-diagram-allocations-past-and-present.203340/page-5 trains formed of "scratch sets" or "scratch rakes" (i.e. sets of coaches that looked as if they had just been coupled together at random) were quite common in the days before fixed formation sets became the norm (so probably until about the mid to late 1980s, but you still sometimes used to see such formations in the early 1990s and to a much lesser extent even more recently than that).

Examples of scratch sets included:

West Coast Main Line trains formed of a mixture of Mark 2s and Mark 3s (which I guess could have caused chaos with the seat reservation system unless a certain number of seats were always left unreserved to allow for this). This seemed to be especially common with Euston to Liverpool, Manchester and Glasgow trains. I think the Birminghams, Wolverhamptons and Shrewsburys were pretty much always Mark 2s, though.

Trains formed of a mixture of Mark 1s and Mark 2s.

Trains formed of a mixture of non-air-conditioned and air-conditioned Mark 2s.

Trains with more brake end vehicles (BSOs, BSKs, BFKs or BCKs) than were needed.

Trains with more First Class than was needed (in which case some of the First Class coaches would often have window labels saying "For the use of passengers travelling Second Class").

You even occasionally used to see trains with coaches at least two eras apart in the same set. For example Mark 1s and air-conditioned Mark 2s (I mean ordinary Mark 1 passenger coaches as opposed to Mark 1 buffet cars in trains of Mark 2 aircons) or Mark 3s and non-aircon Mark 2s.

First generation DMUs were also often formed of vehicles from two or more different classes of unit and could perhaps also be described as scratch sets (see also the thread on 1st gen DMUs at www.railforums.co.uk/threads/1st-gen-dmu’s.203611/).

From 1987-1990 the Scottish push-pull sets could be quite mixed indeed, though a few mixed bag rakes in earlier years. The Euston-Inverness "Clansman" was for a period in the 1980s a good example of mixed stock types.

There's an excellent photo of the train illustrating that I'll try and find again

 

[theblackwatch]

I'd hardly call some of these rakes 'scratch sets'. For example:

Trains formed of a mixture of Mark 1s and Mark 2s.
This was the standard formation on Trans-Pennine (Newcastle/Scarborough) to Liverpool/North Wales for several years. The sets would be formed of 8 coaches, all Mk.2 with the exception of a Mk.1 brake and a Mk.1 SO (36xx series) vehicle, normally at the opposite end. Lovely and warm carriage, normally right behind the loco at the Yorkshire end of the rake.

 

[hexagon789]

I'd hardly call some of these rakes 'scratch sets'. For example:

Trains formed of a mixture of Mark 1s and Mark 2s.
This was the standard formation on Trans-Pennine (Newcastle/Scarborough) to Liverpool/North Wales for several years. The sets would be formed of 8 coaches, all Mk.2 with the exception of a Mk.1 brake and a Mk.1 SO (36xx series) vehicle, normally at the opposite end. Lovely and warm carriage, normally right behind the loco at the Yorkshire end of the rake.

Often two Mk1 SO (ex-FOs) on the TransPennines I believe. Certainly most of the videos and photos seem to have two.

 

[Mag_seven]

I can see us having an argument as to what constitutes a "scratch set" - I'm sure it has been debated at some length before.

 

[Iskra]

A classic example is/are the old traditional holiday weeks special workings and summer Saturday specials that used to run long distance using suburban MK1's and anything else that was knocking about.

In more recent times, I had the privilege of travelling on a GNER HST working a summer Saturday service to Newquay for Virgin XC. MML sets also featured I believe.

The Night Riviera also got pressed into daytime service on Summer Saturdays a couple of years back I believe too.

 

[hexagon789]

I can see us having an argument as to what constitutes a "scratch set" - I'm sure it has been debated at some length before.

I would say - a set of coaching stock which either differs from the booked formation and is formed of a variety of types of stock OR a set of coaching stock hastily assembled to replace stock on another service

 

[6Gman]

I would say - a set of coaching stock which either differs from the booked formation and is formed of a variety of types of stock OR a set of coaching stock hastily assembled to replace stock on another service

I would say the latter.

 

[randyrippley]

Apologies if there's already a thread on this, and not sure if it belongs under history & nostalgia or traction & rolling stock, but as I mention in post 134 on page 5 of the thread on unbelievable rolling stock diagram allocations at www.railforums.co.uk/threads/your-experiences-of-unbelievable-rolling-stock-diagram-allocations-past-and-present.203340/page-5 trains formed of "scratch sets" or "scratch rakes" (i.e. sets of coaches that looked as if they had just been coupled together at random) were quite common in the days before fixed formation sets became the norm (so probably until about the mid to late 1980s, but you still sometimes used to see such formations in the early 1990s and to a much lesser extent even more recently than that).

Examples of scratch sets included:

West Coast Main Line trains formed of a mixture of Mark 2s and Mark 3s (which I guess could have caused chaos with the seat reservation system unless a certain number of seats were always left unreserved to allow for this). This seemed to be especially common with Euston to Liverpool, Manchester and Glasgow trains. I think the Birminghams, Wolverhamptons and Shrewsburys were pretty much always Mark 2s, though.

Trains formed of a mixture of Mark 1s and Mark 2s.

Trains formed of a mixture of non-air-conditioned and air-conditioned Mark 2s.

Trains with more brake end vehicles (BSOs, BSKs, BFKs or BCKs) than were needed.

Trains with more First Class than was needed (in which case some of the First Class coaches would often have window labels saying "For the use of passengers travelling Second Class").

You even occasionally used to see trains with coaches at least two eras apart in the same set. For example Mark 1s and air-conditioned Mark 2s (I mean ordinary Mark 1 passenger coaches as opposed to Mark 1 buffet cars in trains of Mark 2 aircons) or Mark 3s and non-aircon Mark 2s.

First generation DMUs were also often formed of vehicles from two or more different classes of unit and could perhaps also be described as scratch sets (see also the thread on 1st gen DMUs at www.railforums.co.uk/threads/1st-gen-dmu’s.203611/).

Virtually all of those examples involve regularly scheduled formations, not scratch sets

 

[hexagon789]

I would say the latter.

I think that's probably the more usual use of the term, but I think a set made up which isn't booked formation is also a reasonable fit

 

[Cowley]

Hm. That’s the thing isn’t it?

My favourite (sort of) scratch set was the one kept at Exeter in the late 1980s early 1990s, it actually had four coaches to start with (3 mk1s and 1 mk2), but ended up with just the two blue and grey ones:

Here’s a photo (not mine) of it leaving the Barnstaple line at Cowley Bridge Junction behind 50032 sometime around 1989:


Here’s another picture (also not mine) of the remaining two coaches behind a 47 at Barnstaple in 1990:



Even though it looks like the classic scratch set you could easily say that it’s just a ‘Spare’ or ‘Emergency’ set.
I guess it was an Emergency Set that was scratched together...

 

[hexagon789]

Hm. That’s the thing isn’t it?

My favourite (sort of) scratch set was the one kept at Exeter in the late 1980s early 1990s, it actually had four coaches to start with (3 mk1s and 1 mk2), but ended up with just the two blue and grey ones:

Here’s a photo (not mine) of it leaving the Barnstaple line at Cowley Bridge Junction behind 50032 sometime around 1989:
View attachment 77130

Here’s another picture (also not mine) of the remaining two coaches behind a 47 at Barnstaple in 1990:

View attachment 77131

Even though it looks like the classic scratch set you could easily say that it’s just a ‘Spare’ or ‘Emergency’ set.
I guess it was an Emergency Set that was scratched together...

I remember coming across that last set. There was a photo of a 50 handling it on a Pacer replacer along the Dawlish sea wall.

I'm sure there was one instance of a DMU being replaced by a BG, can't remember if any seats were put in though nor the traction

 

[Bald Rick]

Far, far fewer people reserved back then, as (a) there were no Advances, so no incentive to book in advance (and when things like Apex came in, the availability was terrible and had to exist in both directions for a fare to apply), and (b) you had to faff about going to a station to do it, and many smaller stations couldn't. Even Merseyrail stations had to make a telephone call to one of the larger ones (Aughton Park had to call Ormskirk, for instance) to get a reservation keyed in.

This is all true, but there were also many trains back then that were compulsory reservation, particularly weekends on the cross country trains. I remember going with my sister from Reading to the Midlands, when I was about 15, stupidly letting an almost empty ‘scratch’ relief go, and waiting for our train (probably the Sussex Scot) because we had reservations. Of course our seats were already occupied, the occupants (a couple of older girls) wouldn’t shift, and finding the guard on a full and standing 12(?) coach train to sort it out was quite a challenge! From memory the train had a mix of most types of MkIIs.

 

[theblackwatch]

Often two Mk1 SO (ex-FOs) on the TransPennines I believe. Certainly most of the videos and photos seem to have two.

I've checked some formations from a book from 1985 - while there were some with just one, more of them had two so you are right. I've also found that there were some un-renumbered vehicles used, one set with 3092 & 3610 in it, and another with 3051 & 3121.

I would say - a set of coaching stock which either differs from the booked formation and is formed of a variety of types of stock OR a set of coaching stock hastily assembled to replace stock on another service

I would agree with something along those lines!

 

[randyrippley]

Hm. That’s the thing isn’t it?

My favourite (sort of) scratch set was the one kept at Exeter in the late 1980s early 1990s, it actually had four coaches to start with (3 mk1s and 1 mk2), but ended up with just the two blue and grey ones:

Here’s a photo (not mine) of it leaving the Barnstaple line at Cowley Bridge Junction behind 50032 sometime around 1989:
View attachment 77130

Here’s another picture (also not mine) of the remaining two coaches behind a 47 at Barnstaple in 1990:

View attachment 77131

Even though it looks like the classic scratch set you could easily say that it’s just a ‘Spare’ or ‘Emergency’ set.
I guess it was an Emergency Set that was scratched together...

From what I've read elsewhere that wasn't so much a "scratch" set, more of a "ghost" set of coaches kept and maintained "off the books" and hidden from the scrap line..........I believe it had a name - something like the "secret contingency". It was finally got rid of when the freight business realised they were unknowingly funding it and objected

 

[Cowley]

From what I've read elsewhere that wasn't so much a "scratch" set, more of a "ghost" set of coaches kept and maintained "off the books" and hidden from the scrap line..........I believe it had a name - something like the "secret contingency". It was finally got rid of when the freight business realised they were unknowingly funding it and objected

You’re absolutely right Mr Ripley. @ChiefPlanner said (in a different thread) that John Heaton (area manager) referred to it as “The secret resource”.
I saw it deployed behind all kinds of different motive power back then on different duties.

 

[hexagon789]

I've checked some formations from a book from 1985 - while there were some with just one, more of them had two so you are right. I've also found that there were some un-renumbered vehicles used, one s

There was an article in RAIL Express last year I think, which was about TransPennine loco-hauled services. Though one thing I don't think it explained was the air-con firsts which appeared in many rakes at one point.

 

[randyrippley]

You’re absolutely right Mr Ripley. @ChiefPlanner said (in a different thread) that John Heaton (area manager) referred to it as “The secret resource”.
I saw it deployed behind all kinds of different motive power back then on different duties.

I didn't realise that was on here - I thought it was another forum...memory going I guess. I'm sure I've seen another reference to it though

 

[randyrippley]

There was an article in RAIL Express last year I think, which was about TransPennine loco-hauled services. Though one thing I don't think it explained was the air-con firsts which appeared in many rakes at one point.

At a guess displaced by HSTs from the Deltic+8 sets.

 

[Cowley]

I think it’s easy to misunderstand the term - Scratch Set, because it could be viewed as a set of (ready formed) coaches that’s been found at short notice as a stand in. Or also a hurried mix of any available spare multiple units to form a service (see also ‘Lash-up’).

Finding a few spare coaches lying around in a siding and forming them into a train is an idea from a long gone era...

 

[Cowley]

I didn't realise that was on here - I thought it was another forum...memory going I guess. I'm sure I've seen another reference to it though

It was on this thread (I had to have a think about it myself to be honest):

Lapford station yard

Evening everyone. A bit of a long shot, but does anyone know when the last freight ran to Lapford and what was carried etc? The yard was cut back sometime in the 1980s but still received traffic quite late on. It's only recently (the last ten years) that the loop and remaining sidings were taken...

www.railforums.co.uk

It’s from post #16 onwards.

 

[theblackwatch]

There was an article in RAIL Express last year I think, which was about TransPennine loco-hauled services. Though one thing I don't think it explained was the air-con firsts which appeared in many rakes at one point.

I blame the author. I had completely forgotten about them - from memory I think there were a couple of them that saw use for a while (13563/75 or was it 13581/82?). The article was back in 2016 to mark 25 years since the end of Trans Pennine loco-haulage (before it returned with 68s!).

 

[Helvellyn]

Far, far fewer people reserved back then, as (a) there were no Advances, so no incentive to book in advance (and when things like Apex came in, the availability was terrible and had to exist in both directions for a fare to apply), and (b) you had to faff about going to a station to do it, and many smaller stations couldn't. Even Merseyrail stations had to make a telephone call to one of the larger ones (Aughton Park had to call Ormskirk, for instance) to get a reservation keyed in.

You also had relief trains. I recall on Bank Holiday Mondays a number of Glasgow to Euston services running with a relief five to ten minutes ahead of time, with passengers who had turned up in plenty of time encouraged to board. Good way to get Class 81/85 roarer haulage in non air-con stock

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Hm. That’s the thing isn’t it?

My favourite (sort of) scratch set was the one kept at Exeter in the late 1980s early 1990s, it actually had four coaches to start with (3 mk1s and 1 mk2), but ended up with just the two blue and grey ones:

Here’s a photo (not mine) of it leaving the Barnstaple line at Cowley Bridge Junction behind 50032 sometime around 1989:
View attachment 77130

Here’s another picture (also not mine) of the remaining two coaches behind a 47 at Barnstaple in 1990:

View attachment 77131

Even though it looks like the classic scratch set you could easily say that it’s just a ‘Spare’ or ‘Emergency’ set.
I guess it was an Emergency Set that was scratched together...

Yes - some "borrowed" coaches and a freight 47 which just happened to be in the area. Speedlink used to fund a 33 at Exeter for the Lapford fertilizer and (rare) timber traffic , which was perfect for covering the eternal DMU shortages of those days.

Tightening up resource utilisation knocked these innovations on the head.

 

[Cowley]

Yes - some "borrowed" coaches and a freight 47 which just happened to be in the area. Speedlink used to fund a 33 at Exeter for the Lapford fertilizer and (rare) timber traffic , which was perfect for covering the eternal DMU shortages of those days.

Tightening up resource utilisation knocked these innovations on the head.

Here’s a couple of my N gauge recreations of the same trains at Lapford @ChiefPlanner. Inspired partly by your input in that thread.

 

[theblackwatch]

Apparently there is some background into the Exeter sets in one of John Heaton's "Devon Railways: The Area Manager's Diary" books.

 

[Cowley]

Apparently there is some background into the Exeter sets in one of John Heaton's "Devon Railways: The Area Manager's Diary" books.

A friend of mine has it and says he mentions it quite a bit. I think I might order it later.

 

[30907]

A friend of mine has it and says he mentions it quite a bit. I think I might order it later.

I've just read 3 of the 4 volumes (incredibly detailed) on Kindle Unlimited for free. That's what shielding does to you