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Scrap the Heathrow Express

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Samuel88

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The Heathrow Express takes up valuable space on the GWR outside of Paddington, the fares are to be blunt, a rip-off, and soon the trains themselves will be bog standard Electrostars. So is it now time for Network rail to compulsory purchase the tunnel to Heathrow, and turn over the running of services to TfL? And if Heathrow doesn't want to play ball, just remove permission for it's trains to run over Network rails tracks?
 
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Ianno87

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The Heathrow Express takes up valuable space on the GWR outside of Paddington, the fares are to be blunt, a rip-off, and soon the trains themselves will be big standard Electrostar. So is it now time for Network rail to compulsory purchase the tunnel to Heathrow, and turn over the running of services to TfL? And if Heathrow doesn't want to play ball, just remove permission for it's trains to run over Network rails tracks?

There are so many regulatory issues with what you propose, I don't quite know where to start...
 

Bletchleyite

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I think HEx will die naturally once Crossrail opens as Crossrail will be more useful for less money. That said, when that will happen is anyone's guess.

I do think better things could be done with the 4tph fast line paths, primarily involving outersuburban EMU services to Reading.
 

TheWalrus

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I think HEx will die naturally once Crossrail opens as Crossrail will be more useful for less money. That said, when that will happen is anyone's guess.

I do think better things could be done with the 4tph fast line paths, primarily involving outersuburban EMU services to Reading.
I would personally have semi-fasts to Didcot all day, first stop Slough or Maidenhead, then all stops there on.
 

pdeaves

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turn over the running of services to TfL?
TfL Rail already has 24tph (trains per hour) west of Paddington, with almost exclusive use of the relief lines [1]. More need for non-TfL services on the main ("fast") lines instead.
[1] when Elizabeth Line is all up and running properly
 

yorkie

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I would personally have semi-fasts to Didcot all day, first stop Slough or Maidenhead, then all stops there on.
A train that calls at Paddington - Slough - Reading will have a gap after it, which a Heathrow Express service can fill.

So having an equivalent number of fast line trains calling at Slough as using the fast lines to Heathrow is a good way to use paths effectively.
 

Kite159

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Ah the semi-regular thread about how those business folk heading to Heathrow from the West (who currently change at Paddington for the HEX, by being able to take a seat up-to 15 minutes before departure on a non-stop service with luxuries such as luggage racks, tables, toilets, plug sockets) will be happy to head down to a busy Paddington Low Level, waiting around for the correct Metro-Spec 345 (ya know with no luggage racks whatsoever), to roll in with minimal dwell time to end up standing to Southall before being able to get a seat when the train calls at many suburban station.

Taxi!
 

Samuel88

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Ah the semi-regular thread about how those business folk heading to Heathrow from the West (who currently change at Paddington for the HEX, by being able to take a seat up-to 15 minutes before departure on a non-stop service with luxuries such as luggage racks, tables, toilets, plug sockets) will be happy to head down to a busy Paddington Low Level, waiting around for the correct Metro-Spec 345 (ya know with no luggage racks whatsoever), to roll in with minimal dwell time to end up standing to Southall before being able to get a seat when the train calls at many suburban station.

Taxi!
I'm sure those businessmen are happy paying £30+ for a 15 minute journey (if those businessmen are not on expenses, of course)
 

jimm

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I think HEx will die naturally once Crossrail opens as Crossrail will be more useful for less money. That said, when that will happen is anyone's guess.

I do think better things could be done with the 4tph fast line paths, primarily involving outersuburban EMU services to Reading.

Rather unlikely to die any time soon, naturally or by any other means, as a 10-year agreement for the service to continue was signed last year when the GWR takeover of operations was announced.

https://www.heathrowexpress.com/new...ow-express-service-confirmed-to-at-least-2028

Considering your regular demands for the segregation of Reading commuters from GWR long-distance passengers, surely you should be all in favour of keeping West London's commuters segregated from airport passengers as well?

The interior of the Class 345s isn't exactly noted for places to stow luggage, so I can well imagine things would not be pretty on board in the peaks if Crossrail was the only way to get to and from the airport, with people parking enormous suitcases in the circulation spaces around the doors - not exactly a recipe for swift loading and unloading in central London.
 

Bletchleyite

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Considering your regular demands for the segregation of Reading commuters from GWR long-distance passengers, surely you should be all in favour of keeping West London's commuters segregated from airport passengers as well?

The problem is that there aren't the paths to do both.
 

cactustwirly

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I think HEx will die naturally once Crossrail opens as Crossrail will be more useful for less money. That said, when that will happen is anyone's guess.

I do think better things could be done with the 4tph fast line paths, primarily involving outersuburban EMU services to Reading.

No there can't, the paths HEx use are only paths to Heathrow, there definitely isn't the capacity to run trains all the way to Reading.
The HEx paths allow fast services to run to Slough, Maidenhead & Twyford, which have much more London commuters than Reading!
 

edwin_m

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Ah the semi-regular thread about how those business folk heading to Heathrow from the West (who currently change at Paddington for the HEX, by being able to take a seat up-to 15 minutes before departure on a non-stop service with luxuries such as luggage racks, tables, toilets, plug sockets) will be happy to head down to a busy Paddington Low Level, waiting around for the correct Metro-Spec 345 (ya know with no luggage racks whatsoever), to roll in with minimal dwell time to end up standing to Southall before being able to get a seat when the train calls at many suburban station.
Western Rail Link should fix that.

I suspect whenever Crossrail gets going properly Heathrow will be all too happy to make better use of those paths, for example by through service to the south-west via the proposed southern rail link, which would open up new access to Heathrow and also to HS2 at Old Oak.
 

Kite159

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Western Rail Link should fix that.

I suspect whenever Crossrail gets going properly Heathrow will be all too happy to make better use of those paths, for example by through service to the south-west via the proposed southern rail link, which would open up new access to Heathrow and also to HS2 at Old Oak.

Assuming it ever gets built
 

Bald Rick

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The Heathrow Express takes up valuable space on the GWR outside of Paddington, the fares are to be blunt, a rip-off, and soon the trains themselves will be bog standard Electrostars. So is it now time for Network rail to compulsory purchase the tunnel to Heathrow, and turn over the running of services to TfL? And if Heathrow doesn't want to play ball, just remove permission for it's trains to run over Network rails tracks?

Compulsory purchase involves paying full value for it. The current full value is the earnings potential of the line, with premium fares. It will be very very expensive.

If NR tried to ‘remove permission’ for the services, then it would be a break of contract, and compensation would be due. At full value. See final sentence of previous para.
 

jimm

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The problem is that there aren't the paths to do both.

Something you have been told many times in many threads, yet you still go on about it, as though the fast services between Slough (and Maidenhead/Twyford in the peaks) and Paddington are some minor detail that can just be dismissed with a wave of the hand.

If you were called Sloughite, I suspect your line of argument on the subject of those calls might just be a bit different.

As others have pointed out, the HEx paths in and out of Paddington will probably come in handy for other purposes if the Western Rail Link becomes a reality - and whatever happens there will still be a need to provide fast services between London and Slough in future.
 

coppercapped

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The Heathrow Express takes up valuable space on the GWR outside of Paddington, the fares are to be blunt, a rip-off, and soon the trains themselves will be bog standard Electrostars. So is it now time for Network rail to compulsory purchase the tunnel to Heathrow, and turn over the running of services to TfL? And if Heathrow doesn't want to play ball, just remove permission for it's trains to run over Network rails tracks?
Crossrail takes up valuable space on the GWR outside Paddington - causing issues with timetabling the freights using the Western and by occupying the full length of platforms 13 and 14 at Reading limiting the running of cross-Reading outer suburban services. Its trains are no more than tube trains on steroids - they offer no creature comforts at all.
Is it time for the track access agreement for TfL to run on Network Rail's metals to be compulsorily withdrawn and TfL to build its own separate and independent tracks if it wants to serve Heathrow?
 

AlastairFraser

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Crossrail takes up valuable space on the GWR outside Paddington - causing issues with timetabling the freights using the Western and by occupying the full length of platforms 13 and 14 at Reading limiting the running of cross-Reading outer suburban services. Its trains are no more than tube trains on steroids - they offer no creature comforts at all.
Is it time for the track access agreement for TfL to run on Network Rail's metals to be compulsorily withdrawn and TfL to build its own separate and independent tracks if it wants to serve Heathrow?
Or perhaps sending less Crossrail trains out to Heathrow and sending most Crossrail trains out through Old Oak Common to High Wycombe,roughly on the same alignment as HS2 with HS2 underground and stops at Park Royal (with a new tube stop there as well),Greenford,South Ruislip,West Ruislip,Denham,Denham Golf Club,Gerrards Cross,Seer Green and Beaconsfield. These services would replace the Gerrards Cross terminators.Perhaps in conjunction with a re-4 tracking up to this point and electrification of the whole Chiltern Main Line and Acton-Northolt line. It might be a little difficult though with LU's fourth rail but the Underground could be separated in some form or other.
 

Clip

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These days company policy is more likely to bar First Class or use of HEx than individuals, to be honest.

Stop saying things that re half truths - the people who will be barred from both first and using HeX are low down on the food chain and those that do still use ( lots of people) are the ones at the top of the food tree
 

edwin_m

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Or perhaps sending less Crossrail trains out to Heathrow and sending most Crossrail trains out through Old Oak Common to High Wycombe,roughly on the same alignment as HS2 with HS2 underground and stops at Park Royal (with a new tube stop there as well),Greenford,South Ruislip,West Ruislip,Denham,Denham Golf Club,Gerrards Cross,Seer Green and Beaconsfield. These services would replace the Gerrards Cross terminators.Perhaps in conjunction with a re-4 tracking up to this point and electrification of the whole Chiltern Main Line and Acton-Northolt line. It might be a little difficult though with LU's fourth rail but the Underground could be separated in some form or other.
The Gerrards Cross termintors are 2-car DMUs I think, so I can't see those passengers justifying a 9-car high density set plus electrification. The other problem is that the HS2 station blocks access to the direct line towards Greenford so they'd have to run via Ealing. The Paddington and OOC turnbacks for Crossrail may have enough capacity to reverse anything that can't go further west.
 

700007

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The Gerrards Cross termintors are 2-car DMUs I think, so I can't see those passengers justifying a 9-car high density set plus electrification. The other problem is that the HS2 station blocks access to the direct line towards Greenford so they'd have to run via Ealing. The Paddington and OOC turnbacks for Crossrail may have enough capacity to reverse anything that can't go further west.
Granted the Gerrard Cross terminator does usually use a 2-car DMU but they certainly do need and deserve more than that. Hopefully the new franchise spec realises this. Anyway, off topic...
 

Bletchleyite

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Stop saying things that re half truths - the people who will be barred from both first and using HeX are low down on the food chain and those that do still use ( lots of people) are the ones at the top of the food tree

Rubbish, frankly. Companies are moving away from First Class travel for all staff other than in some cases the very senior ones. The future of First Class is as a leisure product and for self-upgrading, if it has any future at all.
 

JonathanH

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Rubbish, frankly. Companies are moving away from First Class travel for all staff other than in some cases the very senior ones. The future of First Class is as a leisure product and for self-upgrading, if it has any future at all.

That is not true. While there is no justification in companies paying for first class for staff to 'have a jolly' if it is the difference between a place work can be done and getting no productive time out of a travelling employee they will be happy to authorise it.
 

Bletchleyite

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That is not true. While there is no justification in companies paying for first class for staff to 'have a jolly' if it is the difference between a place work can be done and getting no productive time out of a travelling employee they will be happy to authorise it.

You've checked the policy of every company in the UK, I trust?

A good many will not authorise First Class at all these days.
 

RT4038

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You've checked the policy of every company in the UK, I trust?

A good many will not authorise First Class at all these days.

I think you are generalising too much - plenty of business people in the first class of trains that I travel fairly regularly. And plenty of work done on the laptops too! Probably depends on the journey time and first class quality.....
 

Indigo Soup

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I'm sure those businessmen are happy paying £30+ for a 15 minute journey (if those businessmen are not on expenses, of course)
Very much depends on the business. Looking now, a Heathrow Express ticket is £25 one way, a non-Heathrow Express ticket is £10.50, a premium of £14.50. The average journey times are 21 minutes (4tph, average wait 7.5 minutes) and 34 minutes (2tph, average wait 15 minutes) - so travelling by Heathrow Express saves 20.5 minutes on average. That's without considering the fact that the services go to different terminals, and the associated transfer time between T4 and T5 if required.

If our businessman's time is worth more than £42.44 an hour, then Heathrow Express starts looking sensible - provided that travel time is bookable to the customer. It isn't always, depending on the contract, but it may well be. When I did a bit of project management work seven years ago, we valued skilled tradesmen's time at £55 an hour, so Heathrow Express isn't ludicrous.

That said, I'd imagine that most companies will dictate that travellers use the most cost-effective means to make their journey.
That is not true. While there is no justification in companies paying for first class for staff to 'have a jolly' if it is the difference between a place work can be done and getting no productive time out of a travelling employee they will be happy to authorise it.
Increasingly, it's as easy to work in First Class as in Standard. Smartphones have seen to that - they're perfectly suited to emails, and can be used to tether a laptop if free WiFi isn't available.

And that assumes that work can be done whilst travelling. That isn't always possible - the work may require specialised equipment or software that isn't available on a train, or there may be restrictions on how company (or customer) information is handled that make it inappropriate to do so.
A good many will not authorise First Class at all these days.
I did once travel First Class on Virgin Trains (as a lowly graduate, no less). It was only possible because company policy dictated that the cheapest ticket should be bought - and for the times and dates I needed to travel, there were First Class Advances left but no Standard Advances. Justifying it was surprisingly easy (screenshot of the journey planner showing that no cheaper option was available) considering that company policy generally banned First Class rail travel, and only allowed business class air travel when flying longer than 4 hours and expecting to work immediately on arrival.

A colleague who worked for the same company got a return First Class sleeper journey expensed, because he couldn't fly on medical grounds, had to be at an early meeting, and company information security rules meant that he couldn't have a shared sleeper berth if he had his laptop with him. The company rules on pay for travel time then meant that he was receiving time-and-a-half whilst sleeping at 80mph. On two consecutive nights. Unsurprisingly, he wasn't sent to such meetings in the future, but on that occasion there was no alternative.

If the company is sensible (and in the case of the above company, I'd hesitate to use the term) there may well be a general ban, but there'll be a process to make exceptions where appropriate.
 

Clip

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Rubbish, frankly. Companies are moving away from First Class travel for all staff other than in some cases the very senior ones. The future of First Class is as a leisure product and for self-upgrading, if it has any future at all.

Neil, stop it. You think your statements are true but they hold very little water in reality some times. I notice how you solely focused your reply on first class in which your statement actually agreed with mine about some being able to have it and some not then you call it rubbish!!

Admit it you simply dont know for sure and if the loadings in first on my morning pendos and those using HeX simply show that you are wrong. Sorry to burst your bubble but you are.
 

AlastairFraser

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The Gerrards Cross termintors are 2-car DMUs I think, so I can't see those passengers justifying a 9-car high density set plus electrification. The other problem is that the HS2 station blocks access to the direct line towards Greenford so they'd have to run via Ealing. The Paddington and OOC turnbacks for Crossrail may have enough capacity to reverse anything that can't go further west.
700007's comment sums it up, the Gerrards Cross terminators could take a lot more passengers,especially if they were extended as in my proposal to High Wycombe,which is a big town with a large catchment area. A lot of the passengers would come from Greenford/Perivale/Park Royal/Ruislip where there is a large latent/present demand for faster services to Central London than the Tube. The OOC issue I'm sure could be overcome but would require money. The electrification of the Chiltern Main Line is inevitable at some point given the traffic it currently carries and the potential to take traffic and diversions off both the GWML and WCML to an extent. And it would probably pay for itself if done in stages(OOC/Marylebone-High Wycombe--> High Wycombe-Oxford/Banbury-->Banbury-Birmingham Snow Hill (and Kidderminster,if it could be paid for :D) Of course,there are other priorities in rail investment,mainly outside London and the South East, so this would probably have to wait,but we could always raise taxes to pay for it all. Too far-sighted for the DfT,I might imagine though.
 
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