Scrap Rolling Stock and the Housing Crisis

[jagardner1984]

A thought occurred to me whilst reading the Mk3 Scrap Thread.

There are a variety of housing options being used in areas with housing shortage - some examples being increased use of the waterways, container homes, park homes, etc etc.

I wonder if there might be locations where some unused goods sidings or depots, where some scrap rolling stock, assuming it is watertight etc, might be shunted and converted into small home modules.

A container home being of a comparable size and shape, clearly there would be some adaptations to be made to compartment etc, and would need water, waste and electric hookup - but it struck me as potentially quite a fast method of using otherwise unused railway land and assets, and a desire for “quirky” homes is clearly out there. And the need for “any” home is clearly desperate in huge chunks of the country.

Or perhaps this exists already and I haven’t found it yet !

 

[Bartsimho]

A thought occurred to me whilst reading the Mk3 Scrap Thread.

There are a variety of housing options being used in areas with housing shortage - some examples being increased use of the waterways, container homes, park homes, etc etc.

I wonder if there might be locations where some unused goods sidings or depots, where some scrap rolling stock, assuming it is watertight etc, might be shunted and converted into small home modules.

A container home being of a comparable size and shape, clearly there would be some adaptations to be made to compartment etc, and would need water, waste and electric hookup - but it struck me as potentially quite a fast method of using otherwise unused railway land and assets, and a desire for “quirky” homes is clearly out there. And the need for “any” home is clearly desperate in huge chunks of the country.

Or perhaps this exists already and I haven’t found it yet !

While it is a good idea I don't think it would be viable as it would be easier to convert Shipping Containers if you wanted to do that. Also don't give up the land as that is quite valuable and retaining the land gives options for later if there is an expansion. For old stock it has to be look to either strip for parts, sell to somewhere which will use it, sell to a developer so they can convert it and place it where they want or sell for scrap.

 

[jagardner1984]

However I can think of many places where land is what I would call marginal (ie insufficient size, proportions to sell for housing) and often close to existing development.

To install footpath access and a set of steps to a carriage, and connecting said carriage to services, does not seem to me to be an impossible task.

Partition walls and fit out are, comparatively, the cheap part of the equation, though I’d fully concede this isn’t likely to interest the person looking for a 2 up / 2 down “standard” home.

The scrap value is of course maintained for a future point where it is necessary to scrap it, in the same way as park homes have a fixed life before they must be replaced.

 

[FlyingPotato]

Interesting idea, what you could do is turn them into holiday homes as the novelty will attract people and use them to free up caravan houses which can then be used to provide actual long term homes.

 

[SynthD]

It fails the requirements for housing in many ways, and I don't want to make an exception.

 

[furnessvale]

You want to solve the housing crisis? Fill Hyde Park with caravans, and suddenly politicians, of ALL descriptions will sit up and take notice.

 

[The Planner]

A thought occurred to me whilst reading the Mk3 Scrap Thread.

There are a variety of housing options being used in areas with housing shortage - some examples being increased use of the waterways, container homes, park homes, etc etc.

I wonder if there might be locations where some unused goods sidings or depots, where some scrap rolling stock, assuming it is watertight etc, might be shunted and converted into small home modules.

A container home being of a comparable size and shape, clearly there would be some adaptations to be made to compartment etc, and would need water, waste and electric hookup - but it struck me as potentially quite a fast method of using otherwise unused railway land and assets, and a desire for “quirky” homes is clearly out there. And the need for “any” home is clearly desperate in huge chunks of the country.

Or perhaps this exists already and I haven’t found it yet !

It wouldn't even make the faintest ripple in any shortage, just how many Mk3s are knocking about? No one is going to accept it on railway land.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

What about building more homes near railway stations, increasing patronage and bringing out-of-service rolling stock back into use?

 

[zwk500]

What about building more homes near railway stations, increasing patronage and bringing out-of-service rolling stock back into use?

The correct answer!

 

[MattRat]

I don't even really know if we have a housing crisis, or it we are simply building the wrong type of homes. We need more cheap apartment blocks, and less luxury houses barely anyone can afford.

These railways carriages though, would certainly fit the bill for cheap houses.

 

[Thirteen]

There's no way that you could realistically turn rolling stock into homes, they weren't built to be homes.

 

[Starmill]

They're not much more use than shipping containers, and unfortunately those have proven very poor solutions time and again.

 

[Bartsimho]

I don't even really know if we have a housing crisis, or it we are simply building the wrong type of homes. We need more cheap apartment blocks, and less luxury houses barely anyone can afford.

These railways carriages though, would certainly fit the bill for cheap houses.

Surely it should be location specific. In the centre of developments have apartments but to the outskirts of them look to have more Terraced and Semi-Detached with maybe some detached. At different stages of peoples live they want different types of property so jumping straight to apartment blocks is a poor idea. While using brownfield sites and looking to have blocks no higher than 4 stories should be the idea as the big 60's brutalist apartments have a reputation about them (and a few of them for good reason).

 

[zwk500]

Surely it should be location specific. In the centre of developments have apartments but to the outskirts of them look to have more Terraced and Semi-Detached with maybe some detached. At different stages of peoples live they want different types of property so jumping straight to apartment blocks is a poor idea. While using brownfield sites and looking to have blocks no higher than 4 stories should be the idea as the big 60's brutalist apartments have a reputation about them (and a few of them for good reason).

The UK housing market is so utterly whacked at the moment that if it's in an urban area, the housing should be as dense as local services can possibly support.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

A thought occurred to me whilst reading the Mk3 Scrap Thread.

There are a variety of housing options being used in areas with housing shortage - some examples being increased use of the waterways, container homes, park homes, etc etc.

I wonder if there might be locations where some unused goods sidings or depots, where some scrap rolling stock, assuming it is watertight etc, might be shunted and converted into small home modules.

A container home being of a comparable size and shape, clearly there would be some adaptations to be made to compartment etc, and would need water, waste and electric hookup - but it struck me as potentially quite a fast method of using otherwise unused railway land and assets, and a desire for “quirky” homes is clearly out there. And the need for “any” home is clearly desperate in huge chunks of the country.

Or perhaps this exists already and I haven’t found it yet !

Compared to container homes, this doesn't strike me as too bad an idea: carriages would surely give roughly the same amount of space as a container and must be better insulated

But
- how long will a redundant carriage last before leaking or corroding beyond repair?
- carriages will only be able to be single storey while containers are stackable; it won't be a good use of landspace.
- are there sufficient redundant railway yards where these could be parked?

It might fill a niche, and every little helps, but it is not a full solution.

 

[zwk500]

Compared to container homes, this doesn't strike me as too bad an idea: carriages would surely give roughly the same amount of space as a container and must be better insulated

Containers have the advantage of being stackable, modular and easily removable. You can line as many containers up as you need in any configuration - square, rectangular or awkwardly shaped (within the limits of 40ft boxes of course). A carriage can only be extended on one axis (unless you're building an actual structure alongside, but that defeats the purpose of the exercise).

It might fill a niche, and every little helps, but it is not a full solution.

It doesn't fill a niche at all, it's at best a solution to one man and his dog (ironically).

 

[jagardner1984]

Well obviously not a solution on any kind of scale. However, building new towns etc has proved consistently very complex in planning and service provision. Developers are looking at ways they can provide 1, 3, a dozen homes, brownfield infill.

Most container homes are not stacked but are sited on small patches of land.

So if someone could lease or buy, for rent, a dozen otherwise life expired metal boxes in which a basic fit out could be achieved, a footpath to an existing settlement and steps installed.

Clearly it would have a lifespan before the stock needed to be scrapped or exchanged. However with rent for a 1 bed flat averaging £2k per month - or about £240k over 10 years, it would seem the price of conversion could be recovered relatively effectively.

It strikes me as not being any dafter than some of the places currently used (many illegally) for accommodation …. Some years ago A friend of a friend who ended up sleeping in an industrial unit which some slum landlord had subdivided into bedrooms, or hearing of those sleeping in offices because they simply can’t afford the commute, in one instance, to Dover every day.

 

[JamesT]

I always find it absurd the idea that developers are building the ‘wrong’ kind of houses. They’re commercial businesses, producing a product people don’t want to buy usually results in your business failing.

Going back to the original proposal, how much of the cost of a house is the actual bricks and mortar? As that’s really all you’re saving using old carriages. You still need the land and running all the services in which is the expensive bit.

 

[zwk500]

I always find it absurd the idea that developers are building the ‘wrong’ kind of houses. They’re commercial businesses, producing a product people don’t want to buy usually results in your business failing.

Developers build houses that yield the most profit for them, but ignore other parts of the market because they're less profitable. So plenty of comfy 3- and 4-beds being built, but much less than the demand for starter homes at an affordable rate.

Going back to the original proposal, how much of the cost of a house is the actual bricks and mortar? As that’s really all you’re saving using old carriages. You still need the land and running all the services in which is the expensive bit.

But an old railway yard will be a lot lower value land than a prime city centre site.

 

[JamesT]

Developers build houses that yield the most profit for them, but ignore other parts of the market because they're less profitable. So plenty of comfy 3- and 4-beds being built, but much less than the demand for starter homes at an affordable rate.

Sure, but they’re profitable because people are prepared to pay the price for them. Also if people are presumably stepping up to these larger houses, that implies their old smaller house is now available.

But an old railway yard will be a lot lower value land than a prime city centre site.

Is there much spare old railway yards available that hasn’t already been sold off?
Even if it is, it will probably cost a lot to decontaminate it to make it fit for people to live there.

 

[zwk500]

Sure, but they’re profitable because people are prepared to pay the price for them. Also if people are presumably stepping up to these larger houses, that implies their old smaller house is now available.

The issue is that the middle homes are so expensive that they need to charge an absurd amount for their starter home that first-time buyers can't get in, so the smaller houses that should be starter homes are taken by people who can't get into the homes they want.
As an example, when I moved out from MK I sold a 2-bed ground floor flat. It was tiny and would have suited either a young single professional (as I was) or an older person downsizing quite happily, but would have been a squeeze for a couple and unworkable for a family, yet I had couples being queued up in my living room for viewings and even had a family with a 7 or 8 year old bidding well over the offer price for it. This was spring 2022, so before Truss, for context

Is there much spare old railway yards available that hasn’t already been sold off?
Even if it is, it will probably cost a lot to decontaminate it to make it fit for people to live there.

Well that's one of the many reasons why it isn't working.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

What about building more homes near railway stations, increasing patronage and bringing out-of-service rolling stock back into use?

Sounds good to me.

 

[D365]

What about building more homes near railway stations, increasing patronage and bringing out-of-service rolling stock back into use?

Derby will be an interesting one to watch, with the council compulsory purchasing (aka turfing out) most of the existing businesses to put up concrete monstrosity flats instead. With a suitable 'location' price inflation and ridiculous service charges.

 

[lyndhurst25]

I’ve stayed for a week in one of these converted Mk2’s.

Self catering accommodation at Skipwith Station North Yorkshire

Skipwith Station Holidays. The Ideal Self Catering Holiday destination for couples, families, large family groups or Individuals. Railway Carriage Holidays on the old Derwent Valley Light Railway, rural North Yorkshire – ‘The Blackberry Line’ only 10 miles from York. Pets stay Free in the...

www.skipwithstation.com

Not sure I’d want to be living permanently in a converted railway carriage, but people live on canal boats and these were more spacious than that.

 

[Dr_Paul]

The post-First World War 'plotlands' often used old railway carriages as the basis for a small dwelling. They lasted pretty well. They were, however, of wooden construction, which might make modification easier than with a modern all-metal carriage body.

 

[Bartsimho]

While this doesn't relate to using rolling stock as such an idea for more housing with transport links could be building a bunch between Epping, North Weald and Ongar. There is still the tracks from the old Epping-Ongar section of the LU (due to the heritage railway) and as such it would be desirable for London Commuters. I know New Town projects as speculation can't be discussed too much as there needs to be many more details but this would help a bit (probably not much in the scheme of things). I'd always say it should be a mix of Detached, Semi-Detached and Terrace housing with some maximum 4 story buildings with a good chunk of greenspace (and maybe as a thing extend Epping Forest north of the M25 and fully west to the River Lee.

 

[JKF]

My crazy idea was to do an Airbnb style hotel on one of the disused viaducts near Leeds city centre (Wellington St or Holbeck), perhaps with a full inter city 125 set. Close enough to the city centre for the weekend tourist etc. though maybe an IC225 set would be more appropriate. You’d need a decent fence along the edge of the viaduct to stop drunk people falling off in the early hours though.