Scottish Top and Tail Passenger Services

[WesternGiraffe]

When Scottish services used Type 2s to top and tail passenger services, what locomotive types were used, could the types be inter mingled, and did both provide traction - if so, what technology was used that enabled the lead loco to control the trailing one?

During the Winter season, am I right in recalling that the Guard was equipped with survival equipment for passengers should the train become stranded? If I am, does anyone have further details on how this was managed?

It's one of those questions that has bugged me for years!

 

[jfollows]

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-27-edinburgh-glasgow-operations.84991/ and linked articles

Push pull working with one locomotive at each end connected by multicore cable running through the coaches would ease terminal times, eliminate engine changing, and also circumvent the need to develop and convert push-pull driving trailers.

 

[The exile]

When Scottish services used Type 2s to top and tail passenger services, what locomotive types were used, could the types be inter mingled, and did both provide traction

The push-pulls were (normally) 27/1 at one end and 27/2 (for eth) at the other. Presumably it would have worked with 2 of either but wouldn’t have been desirable.

 

[Acathater]

When Scottish services used Type 2s to top and tail passenger services, what locomotive types were used, could the types be inter mingled, and did both provide traction - if so, what technology was used that enabled the lead loco to control the trailing one?

During the Winter season, am I right in recalling that the Guard was equipped with survival equipment for passengers should the train become stranded? If I am, does anyone have further details on how this was managed?

It's one of those questions that has bugged me for years!

Mainly class 27/1 and 27/2 both air braked, but on occasion 25 or 37. Yes they could be mixed.
Both locos were powered.
Remote control was via blue star cabling routed through the carriages

 

[hexagon789]

Any Blue Star-fitted and air-braked loco could work the Mk2Z push-pull stock.

25s and 37s definitely appeared, including a few pairs of the latter om occasion.

Other types appeared due to failures or shortages. On at least one occasion, a Deltic hauled a set conventionally through to Glasgow QS and back to Edinburgh, being shunt released at QS.

 

[norbitonflyer]

During the Winter season, am I right in recalling that the Guard was equipped with survival equipment for passengers should the train become stranded? If I am, does anyone have further details on how this was managed?

Not on the push pull services, which worked the Edinburgh Glasgow services, but emrrgency food supplies were carried on the remote lines in the Highlands.

The 27s needed little modification, other than fitting ETH to half of them, and fitting automatic fire detection, so they could operate with no-one on board the rear loco. (not sure what the arangments were if a 25 or 37 depped - did they have to run with a secondman in the rear loco?).

 

[hexagon789]

not sure what the arangments were if a 25 or 37 depped - did they have to run with a secondman in the rear loco?).

Yes, they did. The secondman then effectively reverted to being a fireman in such situations, though concerned more with extinguishing a fire than keeping a fire burning!

 

[norbitonflyer]

Yes, they did. The secondman then effectively reverted to being a fireman in such situations, though concerned more with extinguishing a fire than keeping a fire burning!

That raises an interesting question. When double heading, did the secondman have to ride in the rear locomotive? (I apprevciate if there was steam heat involved he would have to anyway, to mind the boiler in theb rear loco.
And if so, what about the triple-headed Class 37s that used to work the Llanwern iron ore trains?

 

[Acathater]

(not sure what the arangments were if a 25 or 37 depped - did they have to run with a secondman in the rear loco?).

yes - or else turn the heating genny off

 

[WesternGiraffe]

Thanks for the confirmation and clarification on when the survival equipment was used.

Were there any recorded services that were push pull with different classes or did the push pull only work with loco from the same class and sub class?

Has anyone got a comparison between a pair of 27s and 37s on the route? I'd imagine the 37s would have been somewhat overpowered for the service with corresponding timings!

 

[hexagon789]

Thanks for the confirmation and clarification on when the survival equipment was used.

Were there any recorded services that were push pull with different classes or did the push pull only work with loco from the same class and sub class?

Has anyone got a comparison between a pair of 27s and 37s on the route? I'd imagine the 37s would have been somewhat overpowered for the service with corresponding timings!

Speeds in excess of 100mph were recorded with certain combinations of locos, including pairs of 27s.

Officially, in the 1970s, the line was passed for 100mph Bishopbriggs to Polmont and only 75mph Polmont to Haymarket, but the Mk2Z sets with their two-stage disc brakes were specially authorised to run at 90mph over the latter section, as they could achieve the required braking distances.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Were there any recorded services that were push pull with different classes or did the push pull only work with loco from the same class and sub class?

See posts 4 and 5 above - combinations were certainly possible and, execpt for class 27, two of a kind of other classes were unusual but not unheard of. The usual formation was a 27/1 at one end and a 27/2 at the other - one 27/2 was needed for ETH, and as there were only a small number of them they rarely doubled up.

Any two locos witha "blue star" coupling code could operate them in theory. The coaches were wired to so that both locos "saw" each other, the coaches being, as far as control signals were concerned, just a set of jumper cables.

 

[hexagon789]

The usual formation was a 27/1 at one end and a 27/2 at the other - one 27/2 was needed for ETH, and as there were only a small number of them they rarely doubled up.

The coaches were dual heated and heat was only normally switched on from October to April.

Ergo, pairs of 27/1s were not uncommon and indeed when the service launched, it was as I understand it normally steam heated anyway until about 1973 when ETH became the usual method of heating but use of the steam heat facility continued ad hoc until the replacement of the last sets during 1980.

I agree that pairs of 27/2s were not common, as there were so few and temperamental beasts they were too.

 

[The exile]

Has anyone got a comparison between a pair of 27s and 37s on the route? I'd imagine the 37s would have been somewhat overpowered for the service with corresponding timings!

IIRC 37s were trialled at the beginning and were presumably found to be overpowered or couldn’t be released as easily as the 27s.

 

[Harpo]

And if so, what about the triple-headed Class 37s that used to work the Llanwern iron ore trains?

The triple 37 iron ore trains from Port Talbot to Llanwern had their own manning agreement. They were all crewed by Margam and were double manned throughout with no PNB, and the second man a ‘qualified driver’ which included secondmen who’d been passed for driving.

Like virtually all multiple double headers both footplate crew were in the leading cab.

 

[Taunton]

I've written a couple of times on here from being a regular user of the 2x27 on Edinburgh to Glasgow in the 1970s. It was commonly called the "Push-Pull" rather than "Top and Tail".

On odd occasions a 25 or a 37 would substitute for one of the locos, this worked fine, and my fastest speed achieved was with a 37 on the rear. The highest speeds were typically approaching Haymarket or Cowlairs - things were always taken carefully down the bank into Queen Street. One type I never even saw used was a regular 27/0; given that a regular 25 or 37 worked fine it was not apparent what a 27/1 added to things.

The ETH changeover was in significant part to overcome the boilers needing to be run under the fireman's supervision (I think they were still officially termed that, and certainly everybody called them that rather than second man), so they had to be switched on and off every hour to use the one on the leading loco. Bear in mind at this time all internal Scottish stock was also steam heated. The Deutz auxiliary ETH generators put into the 27/2 conversions were a right nightmare and would overheat, and in a few cases catch fire. The 27/2 was always on the Glasgow end of the train so this was a real problem when unmanned heading towards Edinburgh. Additional automatic CO2 extinguishers were then provided, and believe it or not those were also unreliable and would spontaneously activate. Even the coaches initially had burning smells, blown fuses and short circuits at the start of ETH, they were initially ex-WCML but had only been steam heated for a couple of years. This was addressed by more thorough cleaning of the heater elements.

At both ends the service came in just behind the stopping dmu, so there wasn't much point normally in running ahead of time. The best performances were with a slightly late start. I have to say each of the issues I experienced were single events over a lot of use, and got maybe unnecessary publicity. Overall the intense service was pretty reliable, aided of course by there being two locos - running out of fuel on the last service of the day was reported, but that would be one loco, the other would get you there.

 

[Acathater]

One type I never even saw used was a regular 27/0; given that a regular 25 or 37 worked fine it was not apparent what a 27/1 added to things.

27/1 gave you airbrakes / dual brakes
Sources on the web say only airbraked locos could be used

 

[Taunton]

27/1 gave you airbrakes / dual brakes
Sources on the web say only airbraked locos could be used

Well I should have known that ...

 

[Harpo]

27/1 gave you airbrakes / dual brakes
Sources on the web say only airbraked locos could be used

The push-pull stock was all air braked from the beginning. There’s a web article by Nick Lawford (linked) who is way more accurate than most enthusiast magazines. He says of the stock:

Delivery of Mk2C stock to the LMR (London Midland Region) would release older vacuum braked Mk.2s. Principal modifications were fitting air operated disc brakes - the first regular use of disc braking on locomotive operated stock - and enhancements to the pressure ventilation system to bring the stock into line with Mk.2C heating levels. Dual heating was retained.

=

 

[norbitonflyer]

27/1 gave you airbrakes / dual brakes

... and the fire detection system? (although I understand that wasn't a showstopper, as the secondman could ride in the rear loco if it wasn't fitted)

 

[matchmaker]

The push-pull stock was all air braked from the beginning. There’s a web article by Nick Lawford (linked) who is way more accurate than most enthusiast magazines. He says of the stock:

=

It is an excellent article!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jun 2026 ==

At both ends the service came in just behind the stopping dmu, so there wasn't much point normally in running ahead of time. The best performances were with a slightly late start. I have to say each of the issues I experienced were single events over a lot of use, and got maybe unnecessary publicity. Overall the intense service was pretty reliable, aided of course by there being two locos - running out of fuel on the last service of the day was reported, but that would be one loco, the other would get you there.

I remember one summer Saturday being in Bo'ness Junction signal box when, instead of the expected Glasgow to Edinburgh push-pull, a Dunblane to Edinburgh was offered from Polmont - a 70mph DMU stopping at all stations. As the 101 rattled past Bo'ness out of section was given to Polmont, and immediately a 4-4 was offered - the code for a push-pull. This situation required a very rapid phone call to the next 'box - Linlithgow - telling the bobby to loop the DMU, as Linlithgow was the last location where it could be moved in order to let the push-pull past.

As it was, due to the relatively short section between Polmont and Bo'ness, the push-pull lost several minutes as it was practically brought to a halt at the Bo'ness starter. We were however given a magnificent display of 6LDA28 thrash!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jun 2026 ==

At both ends the service came in just behind the stopping dmu, so there wasn't much point normally in running ahead of time. The best performances were with a slightly late start. I have to say each of the issues I experienced were single events over a lot of use, and got maybe unnecessary publicity. Overall the intense service was pretty reliable, aided of course by there being two locos - running out of fuel on the last service of the day was reported, but that would be one loco, the other would get you there.

I remember one summer Saturday being in Bo'ness Junction signal box when, instead of the expected Glasgow to Edinburgh push-pull, a Dunblane to Edinburgh was offered from Polmont - a 70mph DMU stopping at all stations. As the 101 rattled past Bo'ness out of section was given to Polmont, and immediately a 4-4 was offered - the code for a push-pull. This situation required a very rapid phone call to the next 'box - Linlithgow - telling the bobby to loop the DMU, as Linlithgow was the last location where it could be moved in order to let the push-pull past.

As it was, due to the relatively short section between Polmont and Bo'ness, the push-pull lost several minutes as it was practically brought to a halt at the Bo'ness starter. We were however given a magnificent display of 6LDA28 thrash!