Scottish rail services affected by weather 10/12/14

[Blindtraveler]

Im not sure, I'd guess so. Personally after the hammering theyv taken in the past they have this time done good so full marks from me!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Living in South East England we had several occasions last winter where the service was completely suspended until 10am due to forecasts of bad weather. This is frustrating but at least you know the night before that there will be no trains, so can make alternative plans.

The South East is in some ways a bit different, because it is effectively impossible to bustitute for the number of passengers that commute into London. This is why the proposed August WCML closure was a nonsense - unlike on weekends, it is simply not possible to provide a replacement service, and not everyone can take the required time off work.

Personally I would be more annoyed if the train was running but got stuck in the middle of nowhere and we had to wait hours to be rescued.

I spent 3 hours working on a train (nice mobile office!) at Hemel Hempstead last time, FWIW

For what it's worth I think if it's too dangerous to run trains then buses would also be too dangerous. Would they even find enough buses and drivers willing to go out in these conditions?

Depends on the conditions. It might be that inland roads are less affected than the coast, for instance. And employers aren't necessarily going to be understanding[1], so closing the railways might well put more people onto less safe roads in their cars.

[1] I have wondered if, for cases like this, there is a need for authorities to be able to declare a "weather state of emergency" in which businesses are effectively required to shut down/reduce to a skeleton staff in the case of essential services, to discourage people being compelled to travel in dangerous situations? How and if employees are paid, and whether the state provides assistance for a "statutory state of emergency pay" or similar, would be to be resolved, but the key would be that employees would not be able to be disciplined or otherwise adversely affected for not attending work where it is considered by authorities to be dangerous to travel.

Neil

 

[mikey9]

As a regular commuter of the FarNorth line between Inverness and Muir Of ord - it was particualrly dissapointing that they gave in at 3pm yeasterday based upon a weather forecast of typical "Scottish/Highland winter gale".

We have operated services over many years despite this kind of weather every winter.
As it has proven - the wind has not been anything like the worst of last year and rain/sleat snow down in the Inner Moray Firth area is minimal.

Landslips are not predictable - they may happen at any time the wet weather creates the correct conditions. Following that line suggests we should avoid running trains int he Winter altogether

Cancelling ALL services North of Inverness because of a Westerly Gale is clearly OTT. Coastal services down the East coast (the FN line) will not be effected by waves etc.....The same line does traverse the high moors in Caithness and SUtherland however trees are not much of an issue up there!!

There is plenty of opportunity to run a service - as they have now proven by running from Lunchtime at least to Dingwall and back to Inverness.

I do hope this is not going to be the way things are going to go - cancel the outlying services because of a forecast of typical winter weather.

The message that "some" services are being cancelled is irritating too. ALL our Services North of Inverness were predicted to be cancelled.

Mixed messages on Radio Scotland/Scotrail Website/Journey check all contradicting whether bus replacements would run, which services would be replaced made me glad I was pciked up by another commuter.

Not impressive.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Anyboddy know if far North will run tomorrow? Am at present stranded in Orkney and with the probabilitty of a ferry sailing during the predicted lunchtime weather window tomorrow I am hoping to use the 16:27 THS>INV and the 20:15 service down the HML.

 

[mikey9]

I would suspect that full services North of Inverness likely tomorrow when they notice that todays complete overreaction (cancelling all services - then adding back in INV to DING shuttle by lunchtime) was just that.......OTT.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I would dissagree that it was OTT, Pax are better off staying put rather than trying to travel and getting stuck.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would dissagree that it was OTT, Pax are better off staying put rather than trying to travel and getting stuck.

But you also have to consider that not all rail travel is day tripping. By not running you are by definition going to get *other* people stuck. And they'll be the ones stuck without their car at home (if they own one).

One option might, on routes with staffed stations and barriers, be that existing tickets will be accepted and no new ones sold. Not going to work for the Far North though!

Neil

 

[Greenback]

But you also have to consider that not all rail travel is day tripping. By not running you are by definition going to get *other* people stuck. And they'll be the ones stuck without their car at home (if they own one).

Exactly right. Not all those affected will be people who are starting from home. There will be those who are trying to get back home, maybe after an overseas or business trip,and who will, in effect, now be stuck for at least an extra day.

What is the actual weather like now in the areas were trains were cancelled 24 hours ago? Does it look like it was an over reaction, or does the decision appear to be fully justified?

 

[Saint66]

Forecasts at the moment are suggesting a brief calming down in the weather, before winds pick up again through tonight and into tomorrow, when gusts again will be hitting 70mph at least.

Oh, and then there's the chance of snow on Thursday night....

 

[khib70]

"Shed on the line" east of Bowling on the North Clyde lines, apparently. Network Rail politely suggesting that people "secure things in your garden". Excellent advice, applied to trampolines, garden furniture etc, but I'm not sure how I'd go about securing a garden shed?

 

[PaxVobiscum]

"A garden has shed its load on the railway near Bowling" then?

Next "A neighbour said the homeowner was hutted".

 

[PHILIPE]

Have the "local" services from Inverness to Tain/Ardgay been cancelled today as well?

By looking at Real Time Trains, I ascertained that they were cancelled.

 

[infobleep]

"Shed on the line" east of Bowling on the North Clyde lines, apparently. Network Rail politely suggesting that people "secure things in your garden". Excellent advice, applied to trampolines, garden furniture etc, but I'm not sure how I'd go about securing a garden shed?

Every so often I see photos on Twitter of trees on the line or flooding but I've not seen any shed photos yet. Has anyone ever tweeted such a picture of a shed or other object on the line?

I could see that sort of photo appealing to newspaper editors after the more unusual looking weather related photo.

 

[mikey9]

Conditions in and around Inverness and the Moray Firth (which takes you to Dingwall and a bit beyond) have been windy - wet, sleety, but nothing special for a Highland Winter.

The Cancellation of everything was clearly an overreaction based upon the weather that we have encountered today between Inverness and lets say and hour North. (I can't say beyond that but no reports of anything particularly exciting happenning).
As the vast majority of the population of the Highlands live within an hour of Inverness - it has potentially "stranded" a significant number of travellers becuase a normal winter gale happened.

Nowadays - the huge overstatement of weather events seems to be the norm in the media - and the authrotiies (in this case Scotrail/Network Rail) react to the overblown statements. As I say - I hope this isn't an example fo the future or we will be having a lot more trains cancelled because there is a bit of weather around.
:roll:

 

[Chrism20]

"Shed on the line" east of Bowling on the North Clyde lines

For a minute there I thought they had launched a pacer replacement prototype.

Seriously though I'm in Greenock atm and the A-board advert thing outside wetherspoons has just blown along the street towards me. Probably about 50mph winds here just now

 

[Butts]

]For a minute there I thought they had launched a pacer replacement prototype. [/B]

Seriously though I'm in Greenock atm and the A-board advert thing outside wetherspoons has just blown along the street towards me. Probably about 50mph winds here just now

A wind propelled shed would be probably be quicker and more comfortable than a Pacer

 

[Chrism20]

A wind propelled shed would be probably be quicker and more comfortable than a Pacer

Not at all

It's still pretty wild here and the wind has picked up again. I'm sitting in the bar at the Holiday Inn and a large planter has just gone past the window and hit someone's car.

If it's just one shed come the morning it will be a miracle

 

[Hyphen]

This has all got to be an overreaction, surely?

Looking at the West Highland Line on RTT today, I can see all the usual Oban/Fort Bill/Mallaig services cancelled, but I was amazed to see that two freights ran absolutely fine - in fact making up considerable time on their journeys, presumably thanks to not needing to wait in stations for the single line sections.

You can't honestly tell me that a couple of Sprinters are more difficult to run than freights pulling (what RTT claims are) 400/600t respectively?

Linkies:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H32678/2014/12/10/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H35482/2014/12/10/advanced

 

[Clip]

This has all got to be an overreaction, surely?

Looking at the West Highland Line on RTT today, I can see all the usual Oban/Fort Bill/Mallaig services cancelled, but I was amazed to see that two freights ran absolutely fine - in fact making up considerable time on their journeys, presumably thanks to not needing to wait in stations for the single line sections.

You can't honestly tell me that a couple of Sprinters are more difficult to run than freights pulling (what RTT claims are) 400/600t respectively?

Linkies:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H32678/2014/12/10/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H35482/2014/12/10/advanced

So a higher sided Sprinter which weighs around 10x less than a freight train is going to have the same stability whilst running?

Is that what you're saying?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So a higher sided Sprinter which weighs around 10x less than a freight train is going to have the same stability whilst running?

Depends what the freight is. We've all seen what happens to unanchored containers in the wind. The evidence sat in a field near Ledburn for a good year or so until someone could be bothered to go and cut it up.

Neil

 

[GodAtum]

Poor weather may affect services in southern parts of England on Thursday 11 and Friday 12 December

I have a team Xmas meal tonight so might have to skip it. I'll keep checking twitter for updates.

 

[Greenback]

I've edited the thread title to avoid confusion with the WCML thread.

 

[ER158715]

Just a thought for the complainers. Just say you were travelling along at 60mph on a country road in a car with poor headlights, and you came round a corner to be faced by a fallen tree. What would be the likely outcome? It's no different for a train, in fact, it's going to be a damn sight more difficult to stop or impossible to swerve, resulting in an unavoidable impact. Now if you think "a train will be more resilient to damage" just ask the passenger who had a severe leg injury when a tree came in the side of a 158 a couple of years ago.
So, I'm glad that a sensible decision was taken early and that was well advertised. Last thing we want is people being hurt.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just a thought for the complainers. Just say you were travelling along at 60mph on a country road in a car with poor headlights, and you came round a corner to be faced by a fallen tree. What would be the likely outcome?

In a car? The outcome that should occur is that you stop just short of the tree, because you were, as required to do by law, travelling at a speed such that you could stop in the distance you could see to be clear.

Does anyone ever do that? Well...

It's no different for a train, in fact, it's going to be a damn sight more difficult to stop or impossible to swerve, resulting in an unavoidable impact.

Much more so with a train, indeed, because a train is driven on the basis that if the signals say the track is clear, it is, regardless of whether you can see that it is or not.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Poor weather may affect services in southern parts of England on Thursday 11 and Friday 12 December

I have a team Xmas meal tonight so might have to skip it. I'll keep checking twitter for updates.

It is a bit windy in Milton Keynes today, nice and sunny though.

Neil

 

[Saint66]

Worst winds for the south tonight won't hit until after midnight I suspect.

 

[mikey9]

Just a thought for the complainers. Just say you were travelling along at 60mph on a country road in a car with poor headlights, and you came round a corner to be faced by a fallen tree. What would be the likely outcome? It's no different for a train, in fact, it's going to be a damn sight more difficult to stop or impossible to swerve, resulting in an unavoidable impact. Now if you think "a train will be more resilient to damage" just ask the passenger who had a severe leg injury when a tree came in the side of a 158 a couple of years ago.
So, I'm glad that a sensible decision was taken early and that was well advertised. Last thing we want is people being hurt.

As one of the complainers - my point is about where do we draw the line. If there is any chance of trees coming down (i.e. every winter - when it is windy) are we going to cancell ALL services North of inverness. No we mitigate by doing appropriate tree curtting near the line (just as has been done for decades and more). What about any chance of a landslide (good luck with that one)....

As happened yesterday - a Westerley Gale forecast - but a very early decisison taken based upon innacurate information as to the severity - led to compelte and unnecessary cancellation of ALL services - when the East of the North Highlands was pretty much unnaffected. A normal windy day in the Highlands was encountered - just like we probably have for 20 days per winter.

Canw e expect ALL services to be cancelled on 20 winter storm days in Scotland then.......what about if it snows, it may get a bit slippy.....

Sorry - yesterday was clearly an overreaction - I do hope they learn and swing back to assessing risk a bit more effectively.

 

[Greenback]

While an early cancellation of services may make sense in some instances, such as where there is a blanket of heavy snow already on the ground, I do have misgivings about whether this is the right thing to do based solely on a weather forecast.

Are we now going to see services cancelled if snow is said to be on the way? What about ice? where should the line be drawn?

The railway has a long and proud history of running trains during adverse weather when other modes of transport have all but stopped. It would be a shame to throw this tradition away, and for the railway to abandon the proud claim of keeping services running wherever possible.

If, as has been said, the last thing we want is people getting hurt, why do we go out at all? Then again, most accidents occur in the home, so we can't stay in either!

 

[Bletchleyite]

And it is quite possible that cancelling all trains will cause *more* road deaths.

 

[Greenback]

Yes, that's very possible, too.

 

[matchmaker]

"Shed on the line" east of Bowling on the North Clyde lines, apparently. Network Rail politely suggesting that people "secure things in your garden". Excellent advice, applied to trampolines, garden furniture etc, but I'm not sure how I'd go about securing a garden shed?

One of my workmates found a trampoline in his garden yesterday. He lives in the country and his only close neighbour doesn't have young kids. The nearest village is at least 2 miles away...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This has all got to be an overreaction, surely?

Looking at the West Highland Line on RTT today, I can see all the usual Oban/Fort Bill/Mallaig services cancelled, but I was amazed to see that two freights ran absolutely fine - in fact making up considerable time on their journeys, presumably thanks to not needing to wait in stations for the single line sections.

You can't honestly tell me that a couple of Sprinters are more difficult to run than freights pulling (what RTT claims are) 400/600t respectively?

Linkies:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H32678/2014/12/10/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H35482/2014/12/10/advanced

Look at how long the first one took between Garelochead and Craigendoran!